A thought on River Song's character in general

[Lonemagpie]

So, she loves the Doctor because 1) the Silence and Kovarian made her obsessed with him in order to hate and kill him, and 2) he flipped that coin around, making her love him, in order to save his own skin in LKH. Sooner or later, fan feminism is going to notice that, and then the bytes will really hit the fan on LJ and FB and elswhere...

 

[David cgc]

Well, yeah, but you can make the exact same argument the other way around. River had already used her foreknowledge of the Doctor to make sure he was smitten with her by the time he met Melody. And then there's the view that River effectively held the universe hostage to get the Doctor to tie the knot, a sci-fi bunny-boiler.

Of course, I think all of that is a bit cynical, and choose to take a more optimistic, romantic view of their relationship.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

Did the Doctor "make" her love him? I was under the impression that the love and attraction was partly organic and partly an unforseen consequence of giving her a Doctor obsession -- that in the end, he was the only one she could see as her equal or "worthy" of her. The season was so convoulted I'd have to see it again to really back up that argument with refrences.

I do describe myself as a feminist. I'm personally not bothered by River Song and the Doctor's relationship because their ability to affect one another seems to go both ways. The Doctor could never "dominate" River Song, but meanwhile, The Doctor is too clever to ever be completly under her thumb. So they both have the ablity to take the other by surprise and that's something that both of them get off on.

I could see how differing opinions would emerge on that, though. I see her as more of a victim of strange and unusual circumstances who managed to make the best of things in the end.

 

[Rosalind]

It's funny, after watched the Library two-parter, I can't actually imagine River working well with Tennant's Doctor, I just can't imagine them flirting with each other that way.

 

[23skidoo]

I think what works best with River Song and the Doctor is that most of their relationship happens off-screen. That might be the best way to handle this, considering many in the fanbase are uncomfortable with romance in Doctor Who (almost in a "girls are icky!" sort of way judging from the reactions to Rose and other "flings"). I think the Doctor didn't fall in love with River during any of the adventures we've seen so far (though the fact she was willing to tear reality apart for him might have been a clincher) but during an event we've never witnessed and may never see. Certainly Moffat has now built in the largest confirmed "gap" in Doctor Who history - those 200 years - which leaves plenty of time for the Doctor and River to establish their relationship.

Alex

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Certainly Moffat has now built in the largest confirmed "gap" in Doctor Who history - those 200 years - which leaves plenty of time for the Doctor and River to establish their relationship.

The span between "Tomb of the Cybermen" and "Pyramids of Mars" is longer -- three hundred years. The gap between that and "Terror of the Vervoids" is slightly longer -- two hundred exactly, as compared to "Closing Time"'s 195. We don't know where those earlier gaps occur precisely and what eats the years, but they're part of the history.

 

[Guartho]

There's also 8 real world years and a whole doctor between "Tomb of the Cybermen" and "Pyramids of Mars." I don't think I would call that a gap.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Likewise between "Pyramids of Mars" and "Terror of the Vervoids".

Methinks Allyn Gibson hasn't really grasped the concept of "gap" in this context?

 

[Skellington]

Setting aside Three's line about having been a scientist for thousands of years, I think he was 726 in The Green Death. So if Two didn't make a silly mistake in Tomb Of The Cybermen when he estimated his age as 400 to 450 Earth years, then seemingly something like 300 years passed between the two stories. I would suggest, though, that a ratio of three Earth years to four Gallifrey years makes a lot of sense and that everything in OldWho from The Green Death onwards was the latter. That would put all of the Tom Baker references in the 500 to 600 year range in Earth years.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Likewise between "Pyramids of Mars" and "Terror of the Vervoids".

Methinks Allyn Gibson hasn't really grasped the concept of "gap" in this context?

There's a gap of years that go unchronicled. The fact that there are stories in between doesn't negate that in those span of years there's vast amounts of time we don't see.

So I'm confused by this apparent criticism of my point. Either I'm being too subtle or... I'm being too subtle. :???:

 

[Chaos Descending]

Setting aside Three's line about having been a scientist for thousands of years, I think he was 726 in The Green Death.

I'm curious, how do you figure 726 in The Green Death?

 

[Skellington]

^ Possibly by misremembering, now that you mention it. I've been unable to back it up. I seem to recall that it was used in a previous discussion on the Doctor's age many years ago. Could be that it's from the novelisation or entirely apocryphal.

 

[Saquist]

I think what works best with River Song and the Doctor is that most of their relationship happens off-screen. That might be the best way to handle this, considering many in the fanbase are uncomfortable with romance in Doctor Who (almost in a "girls are icky!" sort of way judging from the reactions to Rose and other "flings"). I think the Doctor didn't fall in love with River during any of the adventures we've seen so far (though the fact she was willing to tear reality apart for him might have been a clincher) but during an event we've never witnessed and may never see. Certainly Moffat has now built in the largest confirmed "gap" in Doctor Who history - those 200 years - which leaves plenty of time for the Doctor and River to establish their relationship.

Alex

I was wondering why they did that...the doctor's appearance will certainly change in 200 years...

 

[PurpleBuddha]

^ The two hundred years already passed off screen in the various points of time the doctor happened to be in. If he regenerates in the very next episode it does not change that fact.

 

[Saquist]

^ The two hundred years already passed off screen in the various points of time the doctor happened to be in. If he regenerates in the very next episode it does not change that fact.

So you're saying he's already aged 200 years in this season and now we're picking up with him afterward...

Boy this was confusing for me.
Is that why he had the beard?

 

[Skellington]

^ No, that was from being kept in the tower. The 200 years thing means the 200 years before River shot or failed to shoot him.

 

[Idran]

It's funny, after watched the Library two-parter, I can't actually imagine River working well with Tennant's Doctor, I just can't imagine them flirting with each other that way.

The best description I heard about that, paraphrased off someone from the SA forums: she travelled with a Doctor that fought the Weeping Angels, stared down dozens of species at the Pandorica, literally restarted the whole universe. She meets Tennant, and is so excited to see how astounding he was in these earlier days.

And he's throwing chicken into shadows.

Tad disappointing.

 

[Skellington]

IO9 has a description of River Song's deleted scene from The Impossible Astronaut. Apparently this won't be on the DVD, as it's "too naughty". I find the description amusing, though.