A Sense of Cosmic Scale (in the TOS/TNG movies)
- Thread starter eyeresist
- Start date
A side deal? That was the entire point of the exercise - the mission that the UFP Council had authorized him to perform. Nobody was interested in how the Ba'ku weave their clothes; the UFP needed the Fountain of Youth, and made a deal with the Son'a who made a good case of being the only ones capable of providing it.
Umm, the man was a monk - he flat out refused any rejuvenating treatments, and didn't even spend any extra star hours down on the planet from what we could see. There was no abuse in evidence.
That's a very odd way to phrase it. Had the Feds known the entire story, I doubt they would have gone along with the Son'a.
He was trying to keep secret a mission that had been declared secret. Picard did not have the need to know or even the right to know - the UFP Council had decreed so.
The one thing Dougherty and his Starfleet superiors did not know was that the Son'a were relatives of the Ba'ku and on a mission of vengeance, and therefore lying about the need to devastate the planet. Had this been known, the Council would have doubted the Son'a word about many things. This was a big revelation to Dougherty when Picard relayed Crusher's findings to him, and led to Dougherty clashing with Rua'fo and getting killed. Supposedly, everything else was known to all the other players but not the trespassing E-E heroes.
This in a way gives the movie "scale", in showing that Picard and his crew are in reality very small players in a very big game. Picard made his protestations heard, causing the Council to rethink the situation, but there's no evidence he would have gotten his wish of leaving the Ba'ku alone; for all we know, the Son'a were asked to prepare a second collector and this was used to destroy the planet and create the longevity cure, which is now (as of ST:NEM) under study and will soon enter general use...
Timo Saloniemi
There have been many complaints about distance and travel time between Earth, Vulcan, and/or Kronos, pretty much since the premiere of ENT. Austen pierce hits it on the head with his comment about implied distance and travel time. Even throwaway lines about "It's been so and so hours/days" or "We've come so far/We've covered so much territory" do much to imply great, even vast distances and time, and I have always been disappointed such lines have not been a regular part of newer iterations of ST, let alone more direct lines that advance the story. They make for a greater appreciation of the intended scale.
This is an interesting question, framed up in a different way than the typical "what's your favorite movie" poll.
But, I think I get what the OP is looking for. What movie seemed to cover the most ground in terms of characters, theme, physical distance, etc? That's a different question from "what movie did you like the most?" and I like that approach. So, I will answer from that perspective...unbiased about how much I actually like the film.
Factors:
Characters: how much do we learn about the characters? How much do they endure / develop, etc?
Theme: where the themes thought provoking, grand on a human scale, and brain-ticklingly sci-fi?
Physical/Distance: did the loom and presentation of the film expand our appreciation for the Trek universe and the cosmos in general?
I will rate these on a 1-5 scale, with 5 being highest.
TMP:
Characters: 4 The arcs for Kirk and Spock respectively are excellent. This is one of the best Spock stories in the entire franchise. Excellent, contained character arcs here.
Theme: 3 Although derivative, the "universal search for meaning and purpose" is a strong theme, as is the theme of evolution to a higher plane by combining the better parts of two very different life forms.
P/D: 5 There has never been a Trek film as impressive as this in terms of physical scope and what this did for exploring the Trek universe. This film set the tone for all Treks that followed.
TOTAL: 12
TWOK:
Characters: 3 This is a powerful Kirk story- facing middle age, accountability for his past decisions (David, Khan, accepting the Admirailty, etc), and ultimately death. But there is really no development for the others of any significant value.
Theme: 2 great movie...but this film has a couple pretty simple themes: vengeance and the passage of time/changes in our lives as we grow older.
P/D: 4 I agree that this movie feels like it is "out there
" far removed on the frontier. We see new worlds, meet new characters, see a new starship, journey deep into a planetoid and into a spectacular nebula. Very cool.
TOTAL: 9
TSFS:
Characters: 4 An excellent follow-up to TWOK, we see all the main characters in the spotlight in this one. For the first time, the true camaraderie and family between these people is absolutely clear and they sacrifice everything for that.
Theme: 2 Again, pretty simple here- with themes of friendship and sacrifice. Very well-executed, but simple.
P/D: 5 this comes close to TMP with regard to the impact to The Trek universe (BoP, Excelsior, Oberth, Spacedock). This is also the best depiction of the Klingons in the franchise in my opinion (close to Day of the Dove and Errand of Mercy). Also had a feel of major galactic impacts with the Genesis repercussions.
TOTAL: 11
TVH
Characters: 2 Not too much here. Lots of fun, not a lot of substance. Some warm moments as Spock rediscovers himself...but that's about it.
Theme: 1 Again, pretty mundane and straight-forward here. A nice cautionary tale regarding the impact our carelessness has on the environment and our future.
P/D: 1 Nada here. A happy little trip between the two most popular planets in Star Trek. Time travel is fun...but it just didn't add scope or a sense of wonder to this film.
TOTAL: 4
TFF
Characters: 5 I thought this was one of the very best films in the franchise regarding exploration of the main characters, their motivations, histories, and relationships. Introduction of Sybok adds an interesting insight on Spock's history and motivations.
Theme: 4 there's some heavy stuff here, despite the questionable execution. We get into the nature of God, the impact of false idols, and the role that pain and tragedy plays in our lives.
P/D: 3 The locations and the journey the crew takes are impressive and noteworthy, but the FX and lack of execution take away from a film that could have easily been a "5"
TOTAL: 12
TUC
Characters: 4 Interesting and risky arcs for the characters facing the ends of their careers, questioning their relevance, and battling their prejudices. Lots of classic and poignant exchanges between Kirk &McCoy and Kirk & Spock.
Themes: 2 Fear of change and prejudice are powerful but common themes. TUC didn't really handle these in an interesting or thought-provoking way.
P/D: 2 Some cool stuff here is really limited by budget and rushed production. In theory, this should have been a great intergalactic story, but it just didn't feel that way.
TOTAL: 8
GEN:
Characters: 3 nice arc here for Picard, and Data is fleshed out a bit more with the emotion chip debacle...but this is pretty run-of-the-mill otherwise.
Themes: 5 I love the themes of this movie- the very nature of our mortality, the role death plays in the value of our existence, and our inability to avoid reality. I've always thought this was powerful.
P/D: 4 much like WOK, this movie really feels like the crew is out on the edge of explored space, far beyond Starfleet's easy reach. The Nexus is a flawed but cool scifi concept. We have exploding stars, Klingons, and lots of other cool treats on top of that.
TOTAL: 12
FC:
Characters: 3 Awesome character stuff for Picard here, facing the demons of his past and going a little too far in Terms of his vengeance etc...but very little else.
Themes: 1 I'm actually not sure what FC's theme was.
P/D: 2 Some fairly impressive stuff here with the Enterprise-E, the grandness and evil of The Borg, and the history of the first Warp Flight. But, otherwise, pretty limited.
INS:
Characters: 1 iNS offers very little character development. Picard gets a temporary love interest, Worf gets zits, and Data can serve as an emergency floatation device. Hmmmm.
Themes: 1 ummm...again, not sure.
P/D: 2 interesting new planet and region of space deep on the frontier, lots of new alien species, and some cool ships...but otherwise this is very contained and limited in scope.
TOTAL: 4
NEM:
Characters: 4 Good development for Picard and Data most definitely, with Riker and Troi also moving on in their personal and professional lives.
Themes: 3 some interesting "nature vs nurture" themes here, exploring the value of how striving to be more than the sum of our parts is critical to who we are.
P/D: 4 alien worlds, Romulus and Remus, the Basen Rift, and tons of new ships, plus looming peace/war with the Romulans give this a really grand sense of scale.
TOTAL: 11
But, I think I get what the OP is looking for. What movie seemed to cover the most ground in terms of characters, theme, physical distance, etc? That's a different question from "what movie did you like the most?" and I like that approach. So, I will answer from that perspective...unbiased about how much I actually like the film.
Factors:
Characters: how much do we learn about the characters? How much do they endure / develop, etc?
Theme: where the themes thought provoking, grand on a human scale, and brain-ticklingly sci-fi?
Physical/Distance: did the loom and presentation of the film expand our appreciation for the Trek universe and the cosmos in general?
I will rate these on a 1-5 scale, with 5 being highest.
TMP:
Characters: 4 The arcs for Kirk and Spock respectively are excellent. This is one of the best Spock stories in the entire franchise. Excellent, contained character arcs here.
Theme: 3 Although derivative, the "universal search for meaning and purpose" is a strong theme, as is the theme of evolution to a higher plane by combining the better parts of two very different life forms.
P/D: 5 There has never been a Trek film as impressive as this in terms of physical scope and what this did for exploring the Trek universe. This film set the tone for all Treks that followed.
TOTAL: 12
TWOK:
Characters: 3 This is a powerful Kirk story- facing middle age, accountability for his past decisions (David, Khan, accepting the Admirailty, etc), and ultimately death. But there is really no development for the others of any significant value.
Theme: 2 great movie...but this film has a couple pretty simple themes: vengeance and the passage of time/changes in our lives as we grow older.
P/D: 4 I agree that this movie feels like it is "out there
" far removed on the frontier. We see new worlds, meet new characters, see a new starship, journey deep into a planetoid and into a spectacular nebula. Very cool.
TOTAL: 9
TSFS:
Characters: 4 An excellent follow-up to TWOK, we see all the main characters in the spotlight in this one. For the first time, the true camaraderie and family between these people is absolutely clear and they sacrifice everything for that.
Theme: 2 Again, pretty simple here- with themes of friendship and sacrifice. Very well-executed, but simple.
P/D: 5 this comes close to TMP with regard to the impact to The Trek universe (BoP, Excelsior, Oberth, Spacedock). This is also the best depiction of the Klingons in the franchise in my opinion (close to Day of the Dove and Errand of Mercy). Also had a feel of major galactic impacts with the Genesis repercussions.
TOTAL: 11
TVH
Characters: 2 Not too much here. Lots of fun, not a lot of substance. Some warm moments as Spock rediscovers himself...but that's about it.
Theme: 1 Again, pretty mundane and straight-forward here. A nice cautionary tale regarding the impact our carelessness has on the environment and our future.
P/D: 1 Nada here. A happy little trip between the two most popular planets in Star Trek. Time travel is fun...but it just didn't add scope or a sense of wonder to this film.
TOTAL: 4
TFF
Characters: 5 I thought this was one of the very best films in the franchise regarding exploration of the main characters, their motivations, histories, and relationships. Introduction of Sybok adds an interesting insight on Spock's history and motivations.
Theme: 4 there's some heavy stuff here, despite the questionable execution. We get into the nature of God, the impact of false idols, and the role that pain and tragedy plays in our lives.
P/D: 3 The locations and the journey the crew takes are impressive and noteworthy, but the FX and lack of execution take away from a film that could have easily been a "5"
TOTAL: 12
TUC
Characters: 4 Interesting and risky arcs for the characters facing the ends of their careers, questioning their relevance, and battling their prejudices. Lots of classic and poignant exchanges between Kirk &McCoy and Kirk & Spock.
Themes: 2 Fear of change and prejudice are powerful but common themes. TUC didn't really handle these in an interesting or thought-provoking way.
P/D: 2 Some cool stuff here is really limited by budget and rushed production. In theory, this should have been a great intergalactic story, but it just didn't feel that way.
TOTAL: 8
GEN:
Characters: 3 nice arc here for Picard, and Data is fleshed out a bit more with the emotion chip debacle...but this is pretty run-of-the-mill otherwise.
Themes: 5 I love the themes of this movie- the very nature of our mortality, the role death plays in the value of our existence, and our inability to avoid reality. I've always thought this was powerful.
P/D: 4 much like WOK, this movie really feels like the crew is out on the edge of explored space, far beyond Starfleet's easy reach. The Nexus is a flawed but cool scifi concept. We have exploding stars, Klingons, and lots of other cool treats on top of that.
TOTAL: 12
FC:
Characters: 3 Awesome character stuff for Picard here, facing the demons of his past and going a little too far in Terms of his vengeance etc...but very little else.
Themes: 1 I'm actually not sure what FC's theme was.
P/D: 2 Some fairly impressive stuff here with the Enterprise-E, the grandness and evil of The Borg, and the history of the first Warp Flight. But, otherwise, pretty limited.
INS:
Characters: 1 iNS offers very little character development. Picard gets a temporary love interest, Worf gets zits, and Data can serve as an emergency floatation device. Hmmmm.
Themes: 1 ummm...again, not sure.
P/D: 2 interesting new planet and region of space deep on the frontier, lots of new alien species, and some cool ships...but otherwise this is very contained and limited in scope.
TOTAL: 4
NEM:
Characters: 4 Good development for Picard and Data most definitely, with Riker and Troi also moving on in their personal and professional lives.
Themes: 3 some interesting "nature vs nurture" themes here, exploring the value of how striving to be more than the sum of our parts is critical to who we are.
P/D: 4 alien worlds, Romulus and Remus, the Basen Rift, and tons of new ships, plus looming peace/war with the Romulans give this a really grand sense of scale.
TOTAL: 11
^ Wow, you gave it a lot of thought! NEM also has some interesting play with doubles in its plot, a respectable literary device. So we have Shinzon/Picard, obviously, but also Data/B4, Romulus/Remus, and even Riker/Viceroy (arguably).
Sorry, I watched it a couple of times recently so it's on my mind.
Sorry, I watched it a couple of times recently so it's on my mind.
Vger23, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your breakdown of these movies, especially your interpretation and views on TFF. Oh, what could have been...
GEN is also one I hadn't really thought about in context of this thread. A yes to that one too. INS "should" feel larger in terms of physical distance, but I agree that there's just something that doesn't sell it.
Thanks again... awesome read!
GEN is also one I hadn't really thought about in context of this thread. A yes to that one too. INS "should" feel larger in terms of physical distance, but I agree that there's just something that doesn't sell it.
Thanks again... awesome read!
The Mutara nebula battle in TWOK and the views of the dying Genesis (and Genesis' creation and destruction) planet in TSFS make TWOK and TSFS the most "epic" to me, the grandest-feeling in scope. Like Timo says, visuals first. I really got the feeling in TSFS that Genesis was hard to get to. I'm bucking consensus, but for this specific quality, I get the biggest "epic" feel from TSFS. Also the sense of Kruge going all over the place to find out stuff out/gain Genesis made the universe feel larger.
TSFS is also my favorite of the movies. Maybe you've put your finger on why, eyeresist, or at least partially why.
TSFS is also my favorite of the movies. Maybe you've put your finger on why, eyeresist, or at least partially why.
ILM's effects for TSFS were certainly great, perhaps the most beautiful they did for Trek. Vulcan looked great in that landing scene. The final set for the Genesis planet, though, really did not look good (though the previous "locations" were convincing, even if they were smaller). I wish they had figured out how to make it look more real in terms of lighting and camera angles, or just done it on location.
Similar threads
