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A matter of Crime

Do they have crime in the 24th century? I don't mean Quark's kind of crime (cheating gamblers). I mean Murder and rape and shop-lifting and all the other crap that has been at the core of humanity. Or did all that get washed away by just meeting the Vulcans?

And if there is crime, do you think it is at such a low level it really isn't even a matter of discusion? We keep hearing about Penal colonies. We've seen them on TOS and Voyager and even Bashir's dad was headed for one. But are they just heady stuff? Or is there anyone in a penal colony who did a violent act.

The only reason they seem to have a death penalty is if you visit Talos IV..so I guess no one is going there at all....

Rob
 
Tasha Yar Came from a planet in the Federation(i think) that had big problems with murder, drugs and rape. She mentions rape gangs a few times.
 
Tasha Yar Came from a planet in the Federation(i think) that had big problems with murder, drugs and rape. She mentions rape gangs a few times.

I had forgotten about that...was her planet in the Federation and they just let that happen on her planet..or is this part of that "PRIME DIRECTIVE" stuff we were all talking about last week?

Rob
 
treason would be still around like in star trek 6 with colonel west and co.
i wouldnt say the vulcans are with out crime either i mean t'pring was pretty devious in a way, also if there was no crime i wouldn't have thought odod would have a job or a security officer for that matter. though crime is present i would guess that it's not touched very much in trek as that would turn it into a space columbo or something though i believe ezri dax was solving a murder in ds9
 
treason would be still around like in star trek 6 with colonel west and co.
i wouldnt say the vulcans are with out crime either i mean t'pring was pretty devious in a way, also if there was no crime i wouldn't have thought odod would have a job or a security officer for that matter. though crime is present i would guess that it's not touched very much in trek as that would turn it into a space columbo or something though i believe ezri dax was solving a murder in ds9

You're quite right, she did. ANd then there was that dreadful TNG murder mystery as well. But I get the sense that crime just isn't done as much as in humanity's past. And this is simply because we found aliens in outer space? We need to get that hurrying along in real life..lets find aliens in space so we can become elightened!!!

Rob
 
Tasha Yar Came from a planet in the Federation(i think) that had big problems with murder, drugs and rape. She mentions rape gangs a few times.

I had forgotten about that...was her planet in the Federation and they just let that happen on her planet..or is this part of that "PRIME DIRECTIVE" stuff we were all talking about last week?

Rob
Mem Alpha has it as a Federation protectorate.

From TNG and DS9 we do know there are sovereign human colonies with no ties to the Federation. Those clone jerks weren't Federation citizens. And New Sydney is clearly an originally human settlement, but is beyond the reach of the Federation. Presumably Turkana IV is the same.

The Prime Directive's prohibition of screwing with a government applies to sovereign powers regardless of technological capability, iirc, so it would apply to Turkana and New Sydney.
 
Tasha Yar Came from a planet in the Federation(i think) that had big problems with murder, drugs and rape. She mentions rape gangs a few times.

I had forgotten about that...was her planet in the Federation and they just let that happen on her planet..or is this part of that "PRIME DIRECTIVE" stuff we were all talking about last week?

Rob
Mem Alpha has it as a Federation protectorate.

From TNG and DS9 we do know there are sovereign human colonies with no ties to the Federation. Those clone jerks weren't Federation citizens. And New Sydney is clearly an originally human settlement, but is beyond the reach of the Federation. Presumably Turkana IV is the same.

The Prime Directive's prohibition of screwing with a government applies to sovereign powers regardless of technological capability, iirc, so it would apply to Turkana and New Sydney.


So the Federation's stance is that rape on a wide scale level against women and little girls (as described by tasha and later her sister) has to be allowed so as to save them from them selves if we intervered...hmmmmm...I don't know...

Rob
 
The Federation allows worse.

So does the United States.

Neither is omnipotent, and neither has an automatic duty or automatic right to interfere in the course of another country's politics. Look at Liberia--that is an American colony, created by American citizens, and it is a hellhole. We do not do that much about it. Should we? Maybe we should, but we tried that in Iraq, and look where it got us.

The UFP is even more reticent to use military force to change incorrect governments than the US. There's a reason the Romulans, Klingons, and (until DS9) the Cardassians still had sovereign governments, despite those governments being dominated by bastards. And it wasn't entirely because the Federation physically couldn't topple them. It was because the Federation is extremely isolationist, even by today's standards, until you join their club, and then they stamp on you with dilithium taxes, giving you civil rights, fleet protection, and a moniless economy in return.

Anyway... regarding the OP, I do think there's less crime in the Federation. Economic crimes I suspect have practically vanished. Pure antisocial crimes have probably been reduced by a combination of holodeck substitutes and rehabilitative therapy, which if I am not mistaken form the backbone of the Federation justice system.

There may be another side to the rehabilitative sword, though. Many of the protections of our criminal justice system exist because criminal conviction is a punishment. Ridden of its punitive aspects, it may become far more palatable to order the rehabilitation of those who have committed nothing we would recognize as a crime, but whose behavior is clearly antisocial. Take, for example, a man who likes to act out brutal fantasies of sexual violence on his personal holodeck... nothing there is criminal, and any right-thinking person would find punishing such a man abhorrent, but to the justice system of the future, such behavior may well be grounds for rehabilitative confinement...
 
It depends on where you go. There is certainly no crime on Earth(well accept for maybe the very rare pick-pocket that Tom mentioned). There is certainly no crime on Vulcan. On the other hand I would imagine Qo'noS can be a rather violent place. Humans are a special case in the 24th century even within the Federation, not every planet is as ethically evolved as they are.
 
It depends on where you go. There is certainly no crime on Earth(well accept for maybe the very rare pick-pocket that Tom mentioned). There is certainly no crime on Vulcan. On the other hand I would imagine Qo'noS can be a rather violent place. Humans are a special case in the 24th century even within the Federation, not every planet is as ethically evolved as they are.

How do we know there is no crime on vulcan..there is certainly adultry. Because I do believe TPRING was bedding STonn...then again, maybe adultry is okan on vulcan...You can get exiled if you dont believe in the LOGIC (SYBOK)...so there is some rebel element there..

Rob
 
Why would adultery be considered a crime in the 23rd century Federation when it wasn't considered a crime on 20th century United States, the de facto role model of the UFP?

Dark Journey's point is quite relevant here: crime in the UFP is down because the UFP does something about it. Things would thus get worse the farther away one gets from whatever the UFP is doing.

What is being done, then? We know that criminals get psychological adjustment for everything ranging from Harry Mudd's petty schemes involving counterfeit currency, false identity or dealing in illegal goods, to Tom Paris' or Kasidy Yates' aiding and abetting the enemy, to Garak's attempted xenocide. We know that incurables are so few in number that they all fit in the facility on Elba II - out of a probable population of trillions! We do not know of any repeat offenders: whenever a psych-adjusted former criminal commits a new crime, it's different from what he or she did before. Mudd never used counterfeit money again AFAWK, Yates never smuggled for the Maquis, Garak never considered killing all the Founders through sabotage and unlawful use of Starfleet equipment, and so forth. In contrast, Lon Suder kept on killing, but he never was subjected to a UFP anti-criminal reconditioning program.

That's the reactive part, and perhaps "crime is down" simply because it's swiftly dealt with in this manner. But there's also a preemptive element to it, apparently. From TNG "Justice":

Rivan, foil of the week: "We are a people of law. They do sometimes bring us sadness, but we have learned to adjust to that. Perhaps your laws work as well."
Picard: "They haven't always, but now they do."
Liator, another plot complication: "Do you execute criminals?"
Picard: "No, not any longer."
Rivan: "But you did once?"
Picard: "Unfortunately, yes. But since then-"
Rivan: "But when you did, was it believed necessary to do so?"
Picard: "Some people felt that it was necessary. But we have learned to detect the seeds of criminal behaviour. Capital punishment, in our world, is no longer considered a justifiable deterrent."
So it seems that some sort of a screening program allows for crime to be preempted without resorting to severe deterrent. We know that fines still exist as a form of deterrent, at least for some non-UFP citizens (Quark got fined by the Federation once), but we hear of no other deterrent such as a jail term. Imprisonment always seems to be solely for the purpose of forced reconditioning, not for any sort of punitive aspect.

OTOH, from an earlier part of the same episode:

Yar: "That is extraordinary!"
Worf: "Can I take a moment of your time, Lieutenant?"
Yar: "Yes, Worf, but you've got to hear this. Are you telling me that there's no crime here whatsoever? No one breaks any laws?"
Liator: "Once they did. Long, long ago there was much disorder. But not now."
Yar: "But I seen no sign of police. Those who enforce laws."
Rivan: "Oh, we have very few. They are called Mediators. And they are needed only in one place each day."
So Tasha Yar, a Federation citizen and Starfleet officer, expects that law is enforced by police, and thinks that total lack of crime is "extraordinary". Combined with the fact that our heroes in all the shows encountered UFP citizens engaged in criminal activity, it seems we have our answer.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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