5YMs and WNMHGB

[Wingsley]

I don't know if this has ever come up as a topic, but I thought I'd ask about it...

If you look at the different between "The Cage", which was supposedly set 13 years before "The Menagerie" two-parter, and you also look at "Where No Man Has Gone Before", the evolution of the Starship Enterprise's interior, along with the uniforms and the appearance of the characters (especially Spock), it would seem there was a considerable passage of time between these two stories and the rest of TOS. In short, it doesn't make sense for "Where No Man..." to have occurred, then followed very shortly thereafter by "The Man Trap" or "The Corbomite Maneuver". Obviously, some time had to pass for the ship to be refitted, a significant change in personnel, changes in duty uniform, and apparent changes in the characters themselves.

So, does it make sense to assume that "Where No Man..." occured only a year before the first year of TOS?

If we assume, for sake of argument that TOS occured from 2266 through 2269, and TAS filled much of the remained of the "five year mission". This would mean the Enterprise was being refit and restaffed in 2265 or before. Depending on how long this took, "Where No Man..." would have to take place in 2264 or before. This would suggest that Capt. Kirk was took command of the Enterprise before the "five year mission".

In "Man Trap" and "Corbomite", Kirk seemed casually familiar with McCoy. They behaved as if they had been working together for some time. This seemed quite a switch from Kirk's close relationship with Dr. Piper in "Where No Man...", in which he appeared to be one of the "department heads" and McCoy was nowhere to be found.

If we also assume that Constitution-class starships of that era are typically deployed on the "five year mission" schedule, and that the Enterprise was launched in 2245, Capt. Pike's close encounter with the Talosians would have taken place in 2254, or close to the end of the Enterprise's second "five year mission". TOS/TAS would've been roughly during the FIFTH "five year mission".

Could the refit have happened during or between these five-year flights? And Could "Where No Man..." have happened during a previous 5YM? Maybe Kirk assumed command in 2264 or even earlier, replacing Pike partway through 5YM #4?

 

[cooleddie74]

Based on the Okuda/Paramount calendar devised for the overall franchise as well as Icheb's statement at the beginning of "Q2(VOY)" that Kirk's first and most famous five-year mission in command of the Enterprise ended in the year 2270, we can use simple math to backtrack from that date and come up with 2265 as the launch of Kirk's mission, a few months or so(give or take)before the second TOS pilot episode. Kirk and Spock still seem to be getting to know each other and learning one another's personality quirks, indicating that they haven't served alongside one another for very long at this point. I put the five-year mission of TOS and TAS in the period 2265-2270, with ST:TMP and the V'Ger crisis happening in late 2272 or early 2273.

 

[Lord Garth]

I doubt the refit took that long. The refit in TMP was 18 months, which was far more extensive.

There's no "five-year mission" speech at the beginning of the opening credits for WNMHGB.

Occam's razor:

1. WNMHGB
2. Refit, personnel changes, uniform switches
3. Five-Year Mission

 

[Wingsley]

So, how far back can we place WNMHGB?

2265? '64? '63?

The reason I ask is becuase of the appearance of Spock. Spock changes significantly between WNMHGB and TOS.

 

[Christopher]

WNM is generally assumed to be in 2265. It does stand to reason that it takes place some considerable time before the first season, though. After all, the nearest edge of the galaxy (depending on how you define it) is roughly 1000 light-years from Earth, which would correspond to a year's travel for Voyager, so theoretically should've been even longer for the 23rd-century Enterprise. Even if we fudge it and assume a "high-speed spacelane" to the edge (the only way the Valiant could've gotten there 200 years before at barely over warp 1), there's still the fact that the E was badly damaged by the barrier. So even if it only took, say, a month or two to get out there, it would've taken several months to limp home, and would've then required extensive repairs and refitting.

I assume that WNM took place before the "five-year mission" of the series. However, I do not believe it took place "between five-year missions" or as part of a previous one. Canonically, we have evidence for exactly ONE five-year mission in all of Starfleet history. One example is not evidence of a pattern. Indeed, we do have canonical evidence of other mission durations, such as Excelsior's three-year Beta Quadrant survey prior to TUC. So I'll never understand the tendency to assume that five-year missions are somehow a default. There are many different kinds of mission profile that would no doubt have many different durations. I treat the assignment to the galactic rim as a specific mission in and of itself, with the E assigned to take however long it took to get to the edge and back. This would've been followed by the ship's assignment to a more general interstellar survey/patrol mission with a nominal duration of five years, probably subject to change if circumstances demanded.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Wingsley said:
In "Man Trap" and "Corbomite", Kirk seemed casually familiar with McCoy. They behaved as if they had been working together for some time. This seemed quite a switch from Kirk's close relationship with Dr. Piper in "Where No Man...", in which he appeared to be one of the "department heads" and McCoy was nowhere to be found.

Several novels and comics have suggested that McCoy was on leave for his daughter's graduation at this time. Piper was just filling in.

 

[Wingsley]

Perhaps Kirk's 5YM was based on a general ship territory assingment: Enterprise gets to patrol and explore this section of space, and all provisions will be arranged for 5 years along its designated flight routes.

That having been said, I wonder how back WNMHGB can be placed. The uniforms and ship's internal arrangement seem to have more in common with "The Cage" than TOS. Where does that leave us? How far back would the maximum amount of time be to separate WNMHGB from TOS? 2258? 2260? 2262? The thing that always impressed me was Spock's appearance.

 

[Sir Rhosis]

Never made it to screen so it doesn't count, but in the script of "Court Martial," Commodore Stone mentions that Kirk has been out on his mission for 19 months. If CM is in 2266, subtract that and WNMHGB occurs in late 2264/early-2265.

But, as I said, the line got cut (if it was even filmed).

Sir Rhosis

 

[Lord Garth]

Wingsley said:
So, how far back can we place WNMHGB?

2265? '64? '63?

'65 is what's commonly accepted. 365 days is a long time.

The reason I ask is becuase of the appearance of Spock. Spock changes significantly between WNMHGB and TOS.

His bangs grow out a little, but it's not too much. Hair grows, on average, half an inch every month. The eyebrows are just a make-up difference.

 

[Christopher]

Although I do believe that the galactic-rim assignment predated the 5-year exploration mission, I don't think Kirk could've been in command of the E for more than a few months prior to that mission. Why? Because in ST:TMP, there are multiple references made by Kirk and others to his "five years out there" exploring.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Why are people so hung up about this stuff? The five year mission thing is taken FAR too literally. And it is absolutely impossible to pin any episode down to a specific decade (or even century, usually). Deliberately so. So the rest is bullshit made up by Okuda and others long after the fact.

 

[Lord Garth]

^ Asking a question and being "so hung up" on it are two different things. Unless it's the same person asking over and over and over again or there's another active thread on the same subject, then you have a case.

Why care if people are asking about the five-year mission? There's no need to get hung up over that either. It's a Star Trek board, the question is going to come up, topics get repetitive, that's the nature of it. It's not changing, it's not ever changing, and it's something I resigned myself to long ago. At least he acknowledged the possibility this topic came up before.

The "five-year mission" line was put into the opening so the audience, and network, would know the Enterprise wasn't just aimlessly wondering through space.

 

[Wingsley]

There is another consideration that I just remembered: "The Deadly Years".

During the "extraordinary competency hearing", Capt. Kirk insists that he is only 34 years old.

If we assume this ep took place in either late 2267 or early 2268, that could imply that if Capt. Kirk assumed command of the Enterprise (for the extra-galactic probe, prior to supervising her refit and subsequent five-year mission) in 2264, he could have been promoted to the captaincy at as young as 30-32 years old.

 

[Vagabond]

So I'll never understand the tendency to assume that five-year missions are somehow a default.

Same reasoning holds that all Star Trek series must have exactly 7 seasons or it's somehow unfulfilled.

 

[Broccoli]

A beaker full of death said:
Why are people so hung up about this stuff? The five year mission thing is taken FAR too literally. And it is absolutely impossible to pin any episode down to a specific decade (or even century, usually). Deliberately so. So the rest is bullshit made up by Okuda and others long after the fact.

Actually, TWOK first established it to be in the 23rd Century. And, if you want to go earlier, TMP established it to be at least 300 years after present day (in dialog and the "trailer-voice-guy" mentioned it in the, uh, trailer). Plus, Kirk kept on yapping about the 23rd Century in TVH.

So, Okuda didn't initialize this so-called "bullshit." He elaborated on it from stuff established before he got involved.

 

[A beaker full of death]

I didn't say Okuda initialized it. I said it was imposed on TOS long after the series was in the can, and is not an intrinsic (or "canonical," if people must) part of the series.

 

[Wingsley]

^ Regardless of who made what up, if you look back at the beginning of this thread, I used the calendar-year markers "for sake of argument", as a frame of reference for discussing when WNMHGB took place in relation to TOS.

 

[A beaker full of death]

And based intrinsically on TOS alone, the only possible answer is "sometime earlier." The rest is based on subsequent interpretations.

 

[pookha]

i saw where no man as more of a shakedown cruise/ special decicated science mission .
it was supposed to be something to get a feel for the ship and crew before she goes in for an overhaul but were they didnt expect a lot of trouble.

 

[Shatmandu]

Here's how you do it:

Find out the date filming of "Where No Man" ended.

Find out the date filming of "Corbomite" started.

And that's the time between the two in TOS-time, too.

It took them that long to refit the TV show, and it took them that long to refit the Enterprise and make the internal changes.

Doing upgrades to starships is old hat. This wasn't Starfleet's first rodeo.

Joe, explainer