24th century wealth $$$

[RobertScorpio]

I thought we were led to believe that there was no wealth in the Star Trek future. In fact, I'm not even sure if its ever stated that our starfleet crews even get paid. Do they?

If they don't, then how do they live in a Federation that does seem to depend on wealth. Those people spinning the Dabo wheel seem to be betting their hard earned money, based on their sour expressions when they lost..

Quark isn't fretting over Gold Pressed Latinum for nothing. And Wil Riker seemed to barter credits he earned at Quarks for information he needed.

So, in conclusion..do our Starfleet crews get paid or not?
If not how do they 'get by'

If they do get paid doesn't this kind of go against Roddenberry's 'wealth isn't important in the 23-24 century' mantra?

 

[mvkemp]

I could see them getting a type of stipend because, at least some starship crews, have quite a bit of contact with non-Federation members whose economies do have a currency.

For example, latinum. Just because the Federation doesn't use it as money doesn't mean they don't have access to it. Starfleet or some other federation entity could mine it or do whatever it is that gets latinum for the sole reason for Starfleet crews to have a little spending money in non-Federation establishments.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Races outside the Federation still use money and wealth in the form of mainly gold pressed latinum but Federation citizens dont get paid in this way they are nstead supplied with 'Rations' possibly mainly replicator rations with which they can replicate any number of things. when we see Starfleet officers playing the Dabo table its possible that Federation citizens can trade in their rations in exchange for Gold pressed Latinum in a way similar to a 'bureau de change' at a bank.
But dont mistake Federation citizens with the rest of the Galaxy who still use a form of money.

 

[DarthTom]

RobertScorpio said:
If they do get paid doesn't this kind of go against Roddenberry's 'wealth isn't important in the 23-24 century' mantra?

There are so many inconsistencies with this dogma you might as well say it's swiss cheese.

In the initial episode of TNG Encounter at Far Point Crusher uses 'Federation Credits' .

We than hear multiple blah, blah, blah speeches by Picard how federation citizens help to work for the betterment of humanity. They've cured selfishness apparently by the 24th century. Perhaps they medicate everyone show how because in 10,000 years of human history we haven't changed?

We then learn in DS9 and moving forward that apparently Fed citizens to conduct commerce actually regularly but the system has de-evolved into a bartering system between people verbally trading a precious substance called, 'latinum.'

uh huh.

The bottom line to me is that the whole thing about the economy of the federation is patently absurd and not well thought out by the writing staff. It is akin to someone writing a sci-fi novel in the late 1800's and claiming that human selfishness would be cured by the invention of electricity because their claim the replicators solve every problem is outright fucking stupid.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

DarthTom said:
We than hear multiple blah, blah, blah speeches by Picard how federation citizens help to work for the betterment of humanity. They've cured selfishness apparently by the 24th century. Perhaps they medicate everyone show how because in 10,000 years of human history we haven't changed?

But its possible in the 24th century that every Federation citizen no matter what job they do or whether they're in Starfleet or not get the exact same amount of replicator rations or Federation credits, enough to live on and enough to spend on having fun when off duty, technically this way they aren't acquiring wealth and money/currency doesnt exist, the credits are just a way to ensure everybody gets an equal share.

 

[illfigure]

i mourn your inability to see how people could get by without money

 

[DarthTom]

Fire said:
But its possible in the 24th century that every Federation citizen no matter what job they do or whether they're in Starfleet or not get the exact same amount of replicator rations or Federation credits, enough to live on and enough to spend on having fun when off duty, technically this way they aren't acquiring wealth and money/currency doesnt exist, the credits are just a way to ensure everybody gets an equal share.

Then explain how generational wealth is passed down like the Picard family winery where others have to live in apartment style homes decorated in shades of blues and browns?

Because if everybody gets the 'same' I want to live in the generational home of the Windsor family and live in one of their many castles.

 

[DarthTom]

illfigure said:
i mourn your inability to see how people could get by without money

And I feel sorry for people who have become so drunk on the Trek kool-aid that believe that some how human nature will change so fundamentally because a few new pieces of technology makes life a little easier - a concept that defies 10,000 years of human history on everything from the invention of the wheel to the microwave oven.

 

[John Picard]

DarthTom said:

illfigure said:
i mourn your inability to see how people could get by without money

And I feel sorry for people who have become so drunk on the Trek kool-aid that believe that some how human nature will change so fundamentally because a few new pieces of technology makes life a little easier - a concept that defies 10,000 years of human history on everything from the invention of the wheel to the microwave oven.

X2. In basic economics one learns that the auction system always prevails in who gets what. Socialism has always failed throughout history. Even the Pilgrims first tried it.

 

[DarthTom]

John_Picard said:

X2. In basic economics one learns that the auction system always prevails in who gets what. Socialism has always failed throughout history. Even the Pilgrims first tried it.

I think your definition of socialism is not accurate when it comes to Trek. Socialism as we know it today is where the wealthy give up a little of their ubra wealth to help the considerably less fortunate in society for everyone's betterment. The wealthy are still wealthy and the poor are still mostly poor. No one starves to death and ideally no one is homeless.

In Star Trek 'socialism' not only are people not starving to death but they seem to lack any possessions or ownership period - save a few household items and trinkets or apparently inherited generational wealth.

That ain't 'socialism' at all. It's borderline communism because in communism their is 'collective ownership' of virtually everything - and the few high members of the Federation err party are the one's that live on the better versus the 'little people' toiling for the good of the 'many.'

Star Trek's notion that humans can some how live in literal harmony is outright stupid - unless everyone of course is medicated some how to feel that way.

 

[John Picard]

^^ Very correct, Tom. But it is, in a way, Socialism in that everyone "contributes for the common good". Either way, you're right about bellying up for some Kool-Aid.

 

[mvkemp]

DarthTom said:
Then explain how generational wealth is passed down like the Picard family winery where others have to live in apartment style homes decorated in shades of blues and browns?

Because if everybody gets the 'same' I want to live in the generational home of the Windsor family and live in one of their many castles.

How very un-24th century of you. There's probably something about availability. You used the magic word, want. The difference that GR was trying to say is that people don't live to want the things that you're describing. It's not that people don't have property of personal stuff that can be passed on from generation to generation, it's just that people don't have the drive to accumulate those, live in big houses etc.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

mvkemp said:

DarthTom said:
Then explain how generational wealth is passed down like the Picard family winery where others have to live in apartment style homes decorated in shades of blues and browns?

Because if everybody gets the 'same' I want to live in the generational home of the Windsor family and live in one of their many castles.

How very un-24th century of you. There's probably something about availability. You used the magic word, want. The difference that GR was trying to say is that people don't live to want the things that you're describing. It's not that people don't have property of personal stuff that can be passed on from generation to generation, it's just that people don't have the drive to accumulate those, live in big houses etc.

Yes, the problem with the world today is that everybody is obsessed with material possessions, by the 24th century thats supposedly no longer the case.

 

[DarthTom]

mvkemp said:
It's not that people don't have property of personal stuff that can be passed on from generation to generation, it's just that people don't have the drive to accumulate those, live in big houses etc.

Uh huh. Not getting the 10,000 years of human history and nature thing are we?

Yep replicator technology will cure us of that or is rather large doses of Zoloft?

 

[DarthTom]

Fire said:
Yes, the problem with the world today is that everybody is obsessed with material possessions, by the 24th century thats supposedly no longer the case.

Explain to us dumb dumbs how that transformation magically happens in less than 200 years that defies the entirety of human history?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

DarthTom said:

Fire said:
Yes, the problem with the world today is that everybody is obsessed with material possessions, by the 24th century thats supposedly no longer the case.

Explain to us dumb dumbs how that transformation magically happens in less than 200 years that defies the entirety of human history?

The Eugenics wars / the 3rd world war / the Earth Romulan War / First contact with an alien race / unification of the Earth and the formation of a single world government / the Founding of the united Federation of planets and aim of equality and properity for all and the idea that all are equal in the galaxy?

All these events and likely more can have a dramtic effect on the mindset of the population of a planet.

 

[DarthTom]

Fire said:
The Eugenics wars / the 3rd world war / the Earth Romulan War / First contact with an alien race / unification of the Earth and the formation of a single world government / the Founding of the united Federation of planets and aim of equality and properity for all and the idea that all are equal in the galaxy?

All these events and likely more can have a dramtic effect on the mindset of the population of a planet.

Hummm well, after the great Egyptian empire rose and fell no such transformation happened. After the Roman empire rose and fell no such transformation happened. After the British empire rose and is in its twilight years no such transformation happened. And after WWII and the defeat of communism no such transformation happened.

And each of those huge changes in human history that were accompanied by massive improvements and advances in technology and the 'human condition,' failed to change basic human nature to have what we cannot and covet what someone else has.

Punt.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to explain how generational wealth is passed down to a few 'special families' [like the Picard winery] within the Federation and it would seem other people get screwed?

 

[John Picard]

DarthTom said:

Fire said:
The Eugenics wars / the 3rd world war / the Earth Romulan War / First contact with an alien race / unification of the Earth and the formation of a single world government / the Founding of the united Federation of planets and aim of equality and properity for all and the idea that all are equal in the galaxy?

All these events and likely more can have a dramtic effect on the mindset of the population of a planet.

Hummm well, after the great Egyptian empire rose and fell no such transformation happened. After the Roman empire rose and fell no such transformation happened. After the British empire rose and is in its twilight years no such transformation happened. And after WWII and the defeat of communism no such transformation happened.

And each of those huge changes in human history that were accompanied by massive improvements and advances in technology and the 'human condition,' failed to change basic human nature to have what we cannot and covet what someone else has.

Punt.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to explain how generational wealth is passed down to a few 'special families' [like the Picard winery] within the Federation and it would seem other people get screwed?

I've never understood the whole "human race has evolved since the 20th Century" schtick. Look at how barbaric we've been since the dawn of time versus today. FWIW, the Civil War was fought over 130 years ago but racism still prevails in various pockets of society. People tend to shun the reality of mankind.

 

[DarthTom]

John_Picard said:
I've never understood the whole "human race has evolved since the 20th Century" schtick. Look at how barbaric we've been since the dawn of time versus today. FWIW, the Civil War was fought over 130 years ago but racism still prevails in various pockets of society. People tend to shun the reality of mankind.

Exactly. There is a woman on trial right now who microwaved her baby in Ohio and I read the thread in TNZ in Canada where a drunk man left his infant children in the -50 degree weather to die.

And people want to argue that normal people are going to want to stop living in big houses. Come on.

 

[John Picard]

DarthTom said:

John_Picard said:
I've never understood the whole "human race has evolved since the 20th Century" schtick. Look at how barbaric we've been since the dawn of time versus today. FWIW, the Civil War was fought over 130 years ago but racism still prevails in various pockets of society. People tend to shun the reality of mankind.

Exactly. There is a woman on trial right now who microwaved her baby in Ohio and I read the thread in TNZ in Canada where a drunk man left his infant children in the -50 degree weather to die.

And people want to argue that normal people are going to want to stop living in big houses. Come on.

AlGore will prevail!!!! He and John Edwards will converted their monstrosity homes into low-income apartments