"...all 72 torpedoes are still in their tubes."

Chemahkuu said:

Khan said " the contents of these cargo bays/pods" which are all primtive, labelled SS Botany Bay.

Or does the Enterprise have small mockups of the cargo bays of every Earth vessel from 1996-2266 on hand for such occasions.

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The "bays" in ST2 are the same containers we see aboard the Enterprise in ST:TMP. They even have the skeletal frame for workbee towing still attached to them! (They appear to be a bit larger for artistic license, but not by much.)

In contrast, they have nothing in common with anything seen aboard the Botany Bay. None of them are labeled "SS Botany Bay". Instead, we see Starfleet text on the inner walls clearly enough (although it's nearly impossible to discern the UFP logos on the outer walls, or to see the workbee tow rig - for this, you need to see the set photos).

Here are some Starfleet stencils for you, behind Khan:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0201.jpg

And even if that sideways piece of metal might be considered a "separate" element, not part of the containers, here are some further stencils, with the same font and color as the Starfleet ones. Nothing there to indicate Botany Bay:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0224.jpg

Timo Saloniemi

Timo said:

The assumptions aren't proven correct.

Sure, the torps eventually explode.

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This is a pretty strong indication that her "assumptions" are, in fact, proven correct. In fact, it is only your assumption that she was relying on assumption, which she did not seem to be. What you have not done is proven your contention that she was proven wrong.

Timo said:

In that case, he should. But he doesn't, not if he puts the things back in the torpedoes. That act prevents their destruction as events unfold, and would not have ensured it even had things proceeded as planned.

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Of course it would have - they would have been blown up. ( And there's no putting them "back" in the torpedoes if they stayed in them the whole time. ) The only reason the act "prevented their destruction" was because Kirk disobeyed orders.

Timo said:

It wouldn't make much sense for him to believe that this is Marcus' doing - why would the Admiral hand back the hostages that way?

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Marcus wanted Kirk to shoot the torpedoes, not hand back any hostages.

Timo said:

Khan is saying he was essentially falsely accused.

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I don't think so. For one thing, when Spock accuses him of essentially the same thing later in the film, he doesn't deny it. There is not the slightest indication that he disagrees.

Timo said:

"Space Seed" clearly argues against the former viewpoint, and indicates that history eventually sided with him, clearing his reputation by the time Kirk, Scotty and pals learned about him at school and came to respect him.

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Yet for some reason, by Picard's time his reputation seems to have changed? You may be misinterpreting Space Seed somewhat. For one thing, a tongue-in-cheek comment about a lack of atrocities during his rule does not mean that he was never guilty of war crimes at any point. This is still a character who was willing to kill the Enterprise crew one by one, not to mention his actions during TWOK.

Ryan8bit said:

King Daniel Into Darkness said:

Flying Spaghetti Monster said:

You don't need that many torpedoes to kill one dude on a planet. One would suffice, and maybe bring an extra one.

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Sure you do. Carpet bomb the entire area to make sure he's killed. Why risk missing?

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No, 72 torpedos would be overkill. This isn't necessarily a failing of STID specifically, but I think that the power of matter/antimatter reactions are often a bit underestimated. It's hard to say for sure what the exact yield of one torpedo is, but in itself antimatter would typically be a few times stronger than a nuclear blast of the same weight. Now imagine carpet bombing somewhere on Earth with 200 nuclear bombs. That would be a massive area of destruction causing an insane nuclear winter if not just completely obliterating life on the planet for a long time. That's the definition of overkill if your target is just one man.

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True in theory, but Trek's photon torpedoes have never actually been portrayed as anywhere near as destructive as antimatter weapons should be. Whether it's unshielded ships surviving multiple hits or Kirk, Spock and McCoy walking away from a torpedo hit in STV, they're really nothing near nuclear weapons, let alone the hundredfold increase in destructive power that antimatter weapons would bring.

King Daniel Into Darkness said:

Ryan8bit said:

King Daniel Into Darkness said:

Sure you do. Carpet bomb the entire area to make sure he's killed. Why risk missing?

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No, 72 torpedos would be overkill. This isn't necessarily a failing of STID specifically, but I think that the power of matter/antimatter reactions are often a bit underestimated. It's hard to say for sure what the exact yield of one torpedo is, but in itself antimatter would typically be a few times stronger than a nuclear blast of the same weight. Now imagine carpet bombing somewhere on Earth with 200 nuclear bombs. That would be a massive area of destruction causing an insane nuclear winter if not just completely obliterating life on the planet for a long time. That's the definition of overkill if your target is just one man.

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True in theory, but Trek's photon torpedoes have never actually been portrayed as anywhere near as destructive as antimatter weapons should be. Whether it's unshielded ships surviving multiple hits or Kirk, Spock and McCoy walking away from a torpedo hit in STV, they're really nothing near nuclear weapons, let alone the hundredfold increase in destructive power that antimatter weapons would bring.

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When fired from a large distance, photon torpedoes have been shown to have great destructive power. In "Skin of Evil", when the Enterprise-D fires a photon torpedo at the abandoned shuttlecraft (and Armus), there is a large fireball seen from orbit. Asteroids of varying sizes and compositions are destroyed with ease. In "The Wounded", the Phoenix destroys a fully-shielded Galor-class warship at 100000 km with a couple of photon torpedoes. In "The Die is Cast", a fleet 20 of Romulan and Cardassian warships destroy 20% of the Founders' world's crust from only a few shots from each ship.

It's always when starships are in close proximity to each other (which post-TOS, is most of the time, and mostly less than 5 km), that photon torpedoes are never loaded to full yield. This kind of explains why many starship encounters are in close proximity. In the event of a battle, no one can really use their heaviest weaponry to their full potential. For example, in "The Nth Degree", Picard and Riker are reluctant to fire photon torpedoes to destroy the pursuing alien probe because the probe was too close to the Enterprise (at least until Barclay comes up with a magic solution to triple shield strength).

As for the advanced torpedoes in STID, they're basically all pre-loaded with set yields (and people). The Enterprise doesn't inject them with matter and antimatter, so it can't adjust their yields. If a Starfleet admiral in charge of designing them says you need 72 advanced torpedoes, then you would just use the 72 torpedoes.

(Presumably, without people inside, the torpedoes could be fully loaded with extreme destructive potential, as apparently indicated by background graphics.)

Flying Spaghetti Monster said:

- You don't need that many torpedoes to kill one dude on a planet. One would suffice, and maybe bring an extra one.

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They were supposed to kill him from the edge of the neutral zone. That wouldn't be a precision strike targeted directly at him (if it was, Kirk wouldn't have the moral question of "firing torpedoes at the Klingons"). The goal of that attack was ostensibly to FLATTEN THE ENTIRE KETHA PROVINCE and take Harrison with it. A random explosion in an abandoned city might not get that much attention, but having some aliens role up and bomb half a continent from deep space would be a massive provocation.

The whole reason Kirk went after Harrison in person was because he realized that flattening Ketha Province was a horrible idea, and still would have been even if their warp drive hadn't failed.

- The Enterprise suddenly became equipped with torpedo launchers on the side of the ship. These are later called "tubes". It's ridiculous that it would have so many launchers. Are they all on the same side of the ship?

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No, it actually seems like the ship has between 15 and 30 tubes on either side. I tried to plot their locations last year based on the interior/exterior visuals and found that it's probably closer to 25 on each side.

I'm actually VERY happy with this new configuration, because it never made sense to me for starships to spit photon torpedoes one at a time through a single launch tube that only faces forward. Those launchers were originally created the way they were because at the time photon torpedoes were envisioned to be complicated energy bolts that exploded when they hit their targets; if they're just ordinary missiles (which they have been since Wrath of Khan) then the bulky torpedo tubes cease to make sense.

The script explicitly states that the fuel components were removed so the cases can be retrofitted to store the crew-members. So what the hell would have happened if Sulu didn't hear from Harrison (we never saw whether he did or not) and he decided to "unload the entire payload"? They had no fuel and would have probably not launch at all.

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I am 99% sure that Marcus was playing Kirk and intended for the torpedoes to soft land so that Khan would lead his platoon of augments in a "Bay of Pigs" style invasion of Qonos. Khan betrated Marcus, partially because he's the only person on Earth old enough to remember what a total fiasco Bay of Pigs really was, but also because he doesn't want to rule a toxic shithole of a planet like Qo'nos and figured out he could use Kirk's moral fortitude to have his people delivered to a much more attractive target.

- But my biggest problem is at the end. The Enterprise is critically damaged, and there are gaping holes in the hull and there's red alert with an eminent threat, and somehow Spock manages to find enough experts to take the cryo-tubes out of the torpedoes and re-arm the torpedoes (of course, the ship took heavy damage but none of the torpedoes ever got hit). And all this experts did this in less than five minutes.

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it doesn't take that long to get the crew OUT of the torpedoes. Also, he only would have had to arm ONE of them.

What's actually kind of silly is the ADF novelization that implies not only did they arm the torpedoes, they also replicated fascimiles of the bodies so Khan wouldn't notice anything was wrong if he scanned them.

Because Khan says the "torpedoes are still in their tubes".

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You see the same graphic he sees when he says "they're still in their tubes." You're seeing the exact same thing he's seeing. Significantly, you know exactly as much about the Enterprise's design as Khan does.

So look at that graphic and tell me with confident: ARE those torpedoes still in their launch tubes? Or are they simply in the weapons bay and Khan doesn't know any better?

Flying Spaghetti Monster said:

- But my biggest problem is at the end. The Enterprise is critically damaged, and there are gaping holes in the hull and there's red alert with an eminent threat, and somehow Spock manages to find enough experts to take the cryo-tubes out of the torpedoes and re-arm the torpedoes (of course, the ship took heavy damage but none of the torpedoes ever got hit). And all this experts did this in less than five minutes. What's more, they did it while torpedoes were still in those tubes (which we see how small those tubes are).. How can you do delicate engineering work in that space.

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I'm not sure it's that delicate a job.

Carol just ripped the damn thing apart on the surface of that rock.

Jedi_Master said:

Opus said:

But, but... If we close down 80% of Star Trek griping, Trek fans will have nothing to congregate about! A complete shutdown of shut-in communications! Parents basements filled with the smell of rotting corpses and Cheetos...

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Sounds like a public health emergency. I do want to know how exactly Kirby arrived at his "80%" figure. By my calculations I would estimate 56.5% of all threads would have to be closed, and I have several blueprints and technical layouts from the original designers of the Internet that I can use to prove MY point. So unless Kirby is trying to use the "alternate universe" theory of the Internet, then I don't see how he arrived at that number.

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The 80% number tumbled out of my posterior shortly after the doctor's removed a stick and a bug... I was looking for a place to use it ever since.

I didn't have a problem with the 72 torpedoes, story wise I get it, they needed the number to cover the crew of the Botany Bay. I don't think they were all meant to be fired. The whole plot revolved around Marcus wanting to start a war with the Klingons. What better way to do it than have a disabled Enterprise firing non-working torpedos at the Klingon homeworld. The Klingons would either capture or destroy the Enterprise, and would attack the Federation. The Klingons would still have Khan to deal with and whatever damage he did was a bonus for Marcus, either Marcus would kill him sometime in the future or the Klingons would. The Enterprise was never supposed to capture or kill Khan they were just a pawn in Marcus' over all plan. That is why he went out to kill Kirk and destroy the Enterprise because Kirk captured Khan and was tipped off that something was not right.


-Chris

If I was writing a story, I would never have 72 MacGuffins in it.

cbspock said:

I don't think they were all meant to be fired. The whole plot revolved around Marcus wanting to start a war with the Klingons. What better way to do it than have a disabled Enterprise firing non-working torpedos at the Klingon homeworld.

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The torpedoes wouldn't have even reached the homeworld. Their warheads were intact, but their fuel cells removed. I imagine these torpedoes are like submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs). The launcher throws them out of the ship, and then the missile's rocket takes over.

So, what would have happened is the torpedoes would have been launched, and would have puttered along at whatever "launch" speed is.

WarpFactorZ said:

Their warheads were intact, but their fuel cells removed.

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Not completely. They just weren't where they were expected to be.

WarpFactorZ said:

cbspock said:

I don't think they were all meant to be fired. The whole plot revolved around Marcus wanting to start a war with the Klingons. What better way to do it than have a disabled Enterprise firing non-working torpedos at the Klingon homeworld.

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The torpedoes wouldn't have even reached the homeworld. Their warheads were intact, but their fuel cells removed. I imagine these torpedoes are like submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs). The launcher throws them out of the ship, and then the missile's rocket takes over.

So, what would have happened is the torpedoes would have been launched, and would have puttered along at whatever "launch" speed is.

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But the Enterprise didn't know they were not working. If they fired some at the planet and didn't work, they still would have been detected by the Klingons. They wouldn't have been able to fight or flee. Resulting in war with the Klingons, and Marcus gets what he wanted.


-Chris

Set Harth said:

WarpFactorZ said:

Their warheads were intact, but their fuel cells removed.

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Not completely. They just weren't where they were expected to be.

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This brings up another question I've had for a while: did no one in Section 31 question why this guy they just hired was redesigning their super-secret torpedoes to include a cryotube? Did Khan single-handedly design and build all 72 torpedoes with no external input? Maybe he works like Will Farrell's Elf character, and put them together while everyone slept...

Dennis said:

Not seeing a problem with any of this, dude.

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Dennis, you really want to be the next trolling meme, don't you?

WarpFactorZ said:

Set Harth said:

WarpFactorZ said:

Their warheads were intact, but their fuel cells removed.

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Not completely. They just weren't where they were expected to be.

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This brings up another question I've had for a while: did no one in Section 31 question why this guy they just hired was redesigning their super-secret torpedoes to include a cryotube? Did Khan single-handedly design and build all 72 torpedoes with no external input? Maybe he works like Will Farrell's Elf character, and put them together while everyone slept...

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I'm guessing he designed the fuel cell that was supposed to be fitted to have the same dimensions as a cryotube.

I'm with you that the torpedoes themselves were never intended by Marcus to reach the Klingon homeworld. My assumption is he didn't want Enterprise to actually start a war by doing something as overt as attacking Kronos, but intended for her to be caught and destroyed by the Klingons just futzing around in the general vicinity.

My take was always that Chekov discovered the sabotage to the engines "just in time" and that Enterprise was supposed to be deeper into Klingon space when it was intended to take effect, and likely if it happened later the damage might have been more severe/irrepairable.

As it seems more politically savvy to be able to make a case for war on the Klingons destroying a hapless starship with engine trouble (which may have accidentally gone off course) than one that was destroyed bombing the Klingon homeworld.

Flying Spaghetti Monster said:

If I was writing a story, I would never have 72 MacGuffins in it.

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That's because you have a brain.

drt said:

My take was always that Chekov discovered the sabotage to the engines "just in time" and that Enterprise was supposed to be deeper into Klingon space when it was intended to take effect, and likely if it happened later the damage might have been more severe/irrepairable.

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I don't follow any of that. The sabotage to the engines was discovered by everyone when the Enterprise was thrown out of warp. Since they were supposed to fire the torpedoes from the Neutral Zone but decided to go to Kronos instead, if anything the Enterprise was deeper in Klingon space than it was intended to be when the sabotage took effect. And the sabotage was surely timed according to Marcus' plan, but the damage would have presumably been the same no matter when it happened.

WarpFactorZ said:

Set Harth said:

WarpFactorZ said:

Their warheads were intact, but their fuel cells removed.

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Not completely. They just weren't where they were expected to be.

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This brings up another question I've had for a while: did no one in Section 31 question why this guy they just hired was redesigning their super-secret torpedoes to include a cryotube?

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No because KHAN was the one who designed them in the first place. If anything, they should be questioning why some guy they never heard of is suddenly developing stealthy first-strike weapons.

Then again, that's the kind of organization Section Thirty One is and has always been: nobody knows what anybody else is doing, and you can actually get in serious trouble just for asking about it.

Did Khan single-handedly design and build all 72 torpedoes with no external input?

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Why not? That's basically how Korolev developed the R-7.

LOL, Scotty quits because all of the sudden he suspects that the Federation is losing it's mission, "I thought we were explorers."

Later on we find out that the Enterprise has at least 72 torpedo tubes along her secondary hull. She's a ship of the line, apparently.

Shouldn't it have occurred to Scotty that a ship with dozens of torpedo tubes might be a ship or war? Or was he still trying to figure out where that aft nacelle is?

YARN said:

LOL, Scotty quits because all of the sudden he suspects that the Federation is losing it's mission, "I thought we were explorers."

Later on we find out that the Enterprise has at least 72 torpedo tubes along her secondary hull. She's a ship of the line, apparently.

Shouldn't it have occurred to Scotty that a ship with dozens of torpedo tubes might be a ship or war? Or was he still trying to figure out where that aft nacelle is?

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Scotty certainly understands that he and the Enterprise may be called upon to defend the Federation, hence, he knows the Enterprise has torpedo tubes and may need to become a ship of war. However, he also knows that was not the primary purpose of the Enterprise. It is a ship of exploration first, and a warship second.

Scotty objected to the torpedoes because he was not allowed to test whether or not they presented a danger to the ship. An older and wiser Jim Kirk would've sided with Scotty and asked to have those missiles removed from his ship until he was assured of their safety.

Scotty also objected to the mission because it flew in the face of what he believed Starfleet stood for (the mission is bloodlust and will likely start a war -- while defense is implicit in the ship's mission, neither or those offensive operations are. Peaceful exploring is explicit. Again, an older and wiser Jim Kirk would've immediately felt that way, too, and wouldn't have had to be persuaded by Spock that the mission was wrong and Khan needed to be apprehended and brought back alive to face due process under the law. Scotty knows firing those torpedoes will bring war. Kirk apparently doesn't care if it does. Scotty is the only sane one between the two of them at that moment.