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Who outranks who?

About Troi outranking almost everybody. That was bullshit. Total bullshit. Not trying to be sexist, but she just wasn't credible as an authority figure who could command Worf, Data, Geordi, etc.

"Not trying to be sexist" doesn't mean you aren't being so, and in this case, your statement is deeply, tragically, totally, sexist.

She "wasn't credible" to YOU as an "authority figure." That's ok. That's opinion. But you don't qualify yourself that way. No, instead, you just throw down the gauntlet that none of the guys would have or should have followed her orders - as a statement of fact.

That's the "bullshit."

It's nothing to do with her gender for me. Troi is not and would not claim to be an experienced command officer. She had no idea what she was doing in "Disaster" and relied on a junior officer (Ro) and a non-com (O'Brien) to help her.

I found it bizarre that Data never made it past Lieutenant Commander in his lifetime. He served in Starfleet for over three decades, risked his life on numerous occasions to save his ship and his crewmates and proved himself to be a capable leader. Worf may have had his disciplinary problems but he was also a very experienced combat officer. Ultimately experience is what matters on the bridge of a Starship.

That is why, when it came to it in "Gambit", Data chose Worf as his first officer - not Troi, Beverly or Geordi.

Troi took an exam and did a few shifts on the bridge in the big chair. That does not make her an experienced field commander. She chose a non-command career path, as did Beverely.

At no point when watching Star Trek did I ever think that Kira or Dax or Janeway lacked authority because of their gender. If anything, the writers portrayed them as trying too hard when the audience didn't need them to.
 
Data was assigned as the Ships Second Officer, he was still above Crusher the whole series and she was a Full Commander the whole series as well. Troi was granted some command responsibilities when she became a full commander, but if she hadn't wanted those responsibilites, she wouldn't have gotten them.

Worf stated i Suddenly Human that Crusher was his superior officer, although it seems to me that if Picard assigned an Away team with just the two of them, Worf might be in command if it were a risky mission. Data was clearly in command over Crusher in High Ground.

The type of away mission would most likely determine who's in command of it. Search and rescue Riker, Data or Worf; determining why starship "X" is losing power and needs technical support, Data or LaForge; medical emergency, i.e. starship "X" was attacked and suffered heavy casualties but was out of danger of attack or system failure, Crusher would command it.

Crusher is Worf's superior officer in rank and position. She can order him off the bridge even in battle if he's too hurt to continue his duties (Like Bashir did with O'Brien). Again it would go back to the situation and the needs of the mission.

Crusher did make it clear that she was the only person on board the 1701D who could give Picard an order. Her authority over him is most likely limited to his health and how it effects his ability to command. And she as CMO together with Riker as XO, can remove Picard from command.
 
In "Disaster", a lieutenant commander from the medical division outranked an ensign from the command division during a major crisis situation... then again, the writers probably thought that it was cool to put Troi in charge. ;)


Anyway, here's a revised possible chain of command:

1) Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
2) Cmdr. William Riker
3) Lt. Cmdr. Data
4) Chief-engineers-of-the-week (Season 1 only)
5) Lt. Tasha Yar (Season 1 only)
6) Lt./Lt. Cmdr. Geordi La Forge
7) Lt. Worf
8) Cmdr. Beverly Crusher / Cmdr. Kate Pulaski
9) Lt. Cmdr./Cmdr. Deanna Troi
10) Helmsman-of-the-week (?)

I would personally say that out of all the attempts on this, this one (Ensign_Redshirt's) was the most accurate. Atleast, that is the order id have put them in too. =]
Geordi didn't get many chances to take control of the ship, despite his rank, as he was usually in engineering, doing his job 'n' all.
 
Rank and position are two different things. Dr. Crusher and Troi both outranked Data, but Data's position was still second officer.

Heck, there were four captains serving on the Enterprise in STV and STVI, but only one of them held the position of commanding officer.
 
Crusher did make it clear that she was the only person on board the 1701D who could give Picard an order. Her authority over him is most likely limited to his health and how it effects his ability to command. And she as CMO together with Riker as XO, can remove Picard from command.

Only if she has sufficient medical evidence to prove that he's unfit. McCoy tried that in "The Doomsday Machine" but he hadn't examined Decker and thus wasn't able to relieve him.
 
It doesn't seem that complicated.

Positions first (CO, XO, 2nd Officer) then by rank.

It doesn't appear that there are any officers who aren't in the chain of command at all - if there are any, we don't meet them.

The only way Worf moves ahead of Troi and Crusher is if someone above him is removed, and he's appointed to a command position.

The other question is what potential the various career paths have for the transition to command positions. Could a medical officer request and get assignment as Second Officer, for example, if she wanted to rise to command a regular (non-hospital) starship? I don't see why not, although I'd the guess the choice would be uncommon.
 
I would assume that the Second Officer has some routine administrative duties in addition to "be available and alive when the Captain and XO aren't here".:shifty: In that case, it's unlikely that a major dept. head like a CMO or ChEng would be assigned such a position. Their primary duties are complicated enough and may require extended periods of their full attention.

Of course, I may be completely off-base here and there might be lots of starships out there where the CMO takes command whenever the CO and XO are bopping around planetside.
 
The other question is what potential the various career paths have for the transition to command positions. Could a medical officer request and get assignment as Second Officer, for example, if she wanted to rise to command a regular (non-hospital) starship? I don't see why not, although I'd the guess the choice would be uncommon.

It was always my impression that the point of the bridge-commander test was exactly that. To allow officers to change over like that (as we saw in the All Good Things... future where Beverly was a full ship's captain in command red).

The point of having someone like Troi or B. Crusher take the test like that was that they had risen to their ranks of Lt Cmdr and Cmdr in their respective services of psych/med, which generally is outside the normal chain of command. Taking the test allows them to be considered part of that chain of command and gives them more career opportunities down the road.

As for the Data/Troi rank/position issue, this kinda came up in an episode of M*A*S*H we were watching on DVD. Hawkeye is only an army captain (O-3) but is a surgical doctor, while Houlihan is a major (O-4), but "only" a nurse*, and when most of the senior staff were hit by the flu, Pierce tried to take over as ranking surgeon, but butted heads with Houlihan who was rightfully the ranking officer. They finally agreed that Houlihan would be in charge of administration and Pierce would be in charge of the medical side.

Regardless of Data's rank, he was the second officer, and he outranked everybody except the CO and XO. It seems odd, but it's a procedural thing put in place to keep everything straight in case there's a question.




*not to disparage nurses at all, this is just a reflection of the show, which was a reflection of 1950's era Army.
 
^Exactly. I mean, in the operating room, the doctor outranks the nurse because the doctor's in charge (I know this because my mother has been an O.R. nurse for many, many years), but outside the operating room...that's where it gets tricksy, even now.

P.S. Love your screen name, Milo!
 
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I agree with those who feel that command officers are different from the medical corp. In real like I have a friend who is a doctor in the military. He had been in for several years when he decided to change specialties. He outranked all of his now "attending" doctors" in his newly chosen specialty. I asked him how it worked, and he said everyone just called each other doctor & moved on. Rank was less important than experience.
 
About Troi outranking almost everybody. That was bullshit. Total bullshit. Not trying to be sexist, but she just wasn't credible as an authority figure who could command Worf, Data, Geordi, etc.

However, ranks don't necessarily translate to command, even in today's military. McCoy was an authority figure and fairly high ranking, and he was never put in command of the vessel.

Different departments could have different criteria for advancement as well. Troi is a novice leader but probably a great therapist, which helped her climb the ranks. Same deal with Worf, who started out in a lower rank than Data, became Lt. Cmdr, and eventually became head of the Defiant, a position with more command authority (and opportunities for command) than Data ever had on the Enterprise.

I'm reminded of the MACO situation aboard Enterprise, where Hayes is a major. The equivalent to that rank aboard a vessel is Lt. Cmdr, and therefore he would outrank Lt. Malcolm Reed. However, due to the nature of the mission and Reed's position as a senior officer, he was Hayes' superior despite Hayes' rank.
 
The commander of the vessel is always regarded as holding a 'captain' rank.

No, the commander of a vessel is not regarded as holding a "captain" rank unless they actually hold the rank of captain. You are confusing rank and title. The commander of a ship is given the courtesy TITLE of captain regardless of their actual rank, but their rank remains unchanged.

It's not official protocol to refer to the commander of a ship as "captain", merely tradition and courtesy.
 
About Troi outranking almost everybody. That was bullshit. Total bullshit. Not trying to be sexist, but she just wasn't credible as an authority figure who could command Worf, Data, Geordi, etc.

However, ranks don't necessarily translate to command, even in today's military. McCoy was an authority figure and fairly high ranking, and he was never put in command of the vessel.

Different departments could have different criteria for advancement as well. Troi is a novice leader but probably a great therapist, which helped her climb the ranks. Same deal with Worf, who started out in a lower rank than Data, became Lt. Cmdr, and eventually became head of the Defiant, a position with more command authority (and opportunities for command) than Data ever had on the Enterprise.

I'm reminded of the MACO situation aboard Enterprise, where Hayes is a major. The equivalent to that rank aboard a vessel is Lt. Cmdr, and therefore he would outrank Lt. Malcolm Reed. However, due to the nature of the mission and Reed's position as a senior officer, he was Hayes' superior despite Hayes' rank.

I get that, but Troi specifically told Data that he should refer to her as "sir" (that bitch!!!!!). I don't see why she'd say that unless she held direct command over him at all times. Data would refer to McCoy or Crusher as Doctor, even if they outranked him. I doubt he'd call either "sir".
 
About Troi outranking almost everybody. That was bullshit. Total bullshit. Not trying to be sexist, but she just wasn't credible as an authority figure who could command Worf, Data, Geordi, etc.

However, ranks don't necessarily translate to command, even in today's military. McCoy was an authority figure and fairly high ranking, and he was never put in command of the vessel.

Different departments could have different criteria for advancement as well. Troi is a novice leader but probably a great therapist, which helped her climb the ranks. Same deal with Worf, who started out in a lower rank than Data, became Lt. Cmdr, and eventually became head of the Defiant, a position with more command authority (and opportunities for command) than Data ever had on the Enterprise.

I'm reminded of the MACO situation aboard Enterprise, where Hayes is a major. The equivalent to that rank aboard a vessel is Lt. Cmdr, and therefore he would outrank Lt. Malcolm Reed. However, due to the nature of the mission and Reed's position as a senior officer, he was Hayes' superior despite Hayes' rank.

I get that, but Troi specifically told Data that he should refer to her as "sir" (that bitch!!!!!). I don't see why she'd say that unless she held direct command over him at all times. Data would refer to McCoy or Crusher as Doctor, even if they outranked him. I doubt he'd call either "sir".

Well she was correct with that statement, nevertheless I took it more as a joke. But you know how well Data can appreciate humor.
 
About Troi outranking almost everybody. That was bullshit. Total bullshit. Not trying to be sexist, but she just wasn't credible as an authority figure who could command Worf, Data, Geordi, etc.

However, ranks don't necessarily translate to command, even in today's military. McCoy was an authority figure and fairly high ranking, and he was never put in command of the vessel.

Different departments could have different criteria for advancement as well. Troi is a novice leader but probably a great therapist, which helped her climb the ranks. Same deal with Worf, who started out in a lower rank than Data, became Lt. Cmdr, and eventually became head of the Defiant, a position with more command authority (and opportunities for command) than Data ever had on the Enterprise.

I'm reminded of the MACO situation aboard Enterprise, where Hayes is a major. The equivalent to that rank aboard a vessel is Lt. Cmdr, and therefore he would outrank Lt. Malcolm Reed. However, due to the nature of the mission and Reed's position as a senior officer, he was Hayes' superior despite Hayes' rank.

I get that, but Troi specifically told Data that he should refer to her as "sir" (that bitch!!!!!). I don't see why she'd say that unless she held direct command over him at all times. Data would refer to McCoy or Crusher as Doctor, even if they outranked him. I doubt he'd call either "sir".

Agreed with Thingol. Protocol Vs. a smirk? C'mon now, have a little fun.
 
About Troi outranking almost everybody. That was bullshit. Total bullshit. Not trying to be sexist, but she just wasn't credible as an authority figure who could command Worf, Data, Geordi, etc.

However, ranks don't necessarily translate to command, even in today's military. McCoy was an authority figure and fairly high ranking, and he was never put in command of the vessel.

Different departments could have different criteria for advancement as well. Troi is a novice leader but probably a great therapist, which helped her climb the ranks. Same deal with Worf, who started out in a lower rank than Data, became Lt. Cmdr, and eventually became head of the Defiant, a position with more command authority (and opportunities for command) than Data ever had on the Enterprise.

I'm reminded of the MACO situation aboard Enterprise, where Hayes is a major. The equivalent to that rank aboard a vessel is Lt. Cmdr, and therefore he would outrank Lt. Malcolm Reed. However, due to the nature of the mission and Reed's position as a senior officer, he was Hayes' superior despite Hayes' rank.

I get that, but Troi specifically told Data that he should refer to her as "sir" (that bitch!!!!!). I don't see why she'd say that unless she held direct command over him at all times. Data would refer to McCoy or Crusher as Doctor, even if they outranked him. I doubt he'd call either "sir".

At military academies in the UK, recruits (who are officers) are called 'sir' by their drill sergeants (who are NCOs). But that has absolutely no bearing on who is in charge.
 
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