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What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

I don't see Georgiou as being any different from Sato or the Intendant.
I found the Intendant insufferable, so I suppose Georgiou is in good company.

I think I just appreciate a little nuance in my shady characters. A little subtlety. Garak for example. Or even Dukhat. Georgiou is about as subtle as a sledgehammer.

Plus, I know the topic has been beaten like a dead horse, but I still find it odd that she was picked as a protagonist in a Trek film. I get it, flawed character seeking redemption is as classic as it gets in terms of storytelling, but the comparison to someone like Hitler is not without merit. Does an audience actually want to watch someone like that seek redemption?

I don't.

I'll watch it because I'll watch anything with the Trek named attached. But Space Hitler seeks redemption would certainly not be my first choice.
 
I found the Intendant insufferable, so I suppose Georgiou is in good company.

I think I just appreciate a little nuance in my shady characters. A little subtlety. Garak for example. Or even Dukhat. Georgiou is about as subtle as a sledgehammer.

Plus, I know the topic has been beaten like a dead horse, but I still find it odd that she was picked as a protagonist in a Trek film. I get it, flawed character seeking redemption is as classic as it gets in terms of storytelling, but the comparison to someone like Hitler is not without merit. Does an audience actually want to watch someone like that seek redemption?

I don't.

I'll watch it because I'll watch anything with the Trek named attached. But Space Hitler seeks redemption would certainly not be my first choice.
It's a moot point since it didn't happen.

BUT, if it did, then I would want to watch it depending on how they handled it. If it was written like the TV Movie we got, then no. If it would've been much better written, then perhaps.

Obviously Section 31 can't become too enlightened 50 years before late-DS9. They attempted genocide on the Changeling Homeworld. The problem with the Section 31 TV Movie was that they avoided all the tough questions. Instead of taking a stance and being unafraid of it, they decided to avoid the most challenging material.

I called it back in 2019.

But anyway, Georgiou's never done anything against the Federation in the Prime Timeline, she's going under the identity of Prime Georgiou (which was mutually agreed to), and has cooperated with the Federation, so regardless of whatever she did in the Mirror Universe we have to move past that (and let's not forget you can't be tried for anything without evidence, especially considering there's also no context for it and Starfleet won't even acknowledge the Mirror Universe), or every discussion about the Section 31 Series will end up coming back to this and we'll never get out of this circle. I want to get out of this never-ending circle. I know a lot of other people do too. So we have to agree to disagree and move past it.​

The Section 31 Series won't be for everyone and it doesn't have to be. I'm looking forward to it. Other people can watch something else. It's not like there'll be a shortage of options. I don't demand that I have to like each and every Star Trek series. But that's just me. But if you do watch, just don't act surprised when Section 31 does Section 31 things. I think the show is going to be a lot lighter than the weighty holier-than-thou criticisms being leveled towards it.​
Everything I said in those two paragraphs, I could've said today. Word-for-word.

But when we get right down to it, it's just a fictional character, like @Nyotarules said.

And we mostly only see her in the Prime Universe. Anything in the Mirror Universe, as far as I'm concerned, is just backstory. Fictional backstory.

I like Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul as well. Doesn't mean I'd approve of Walter White or Saul Goodman if I knew them in Real Life, same as Georgiou. But, I'm watching them on TV, so it's interesting to see characters who have viewpoints totally foreign to my own.

Lorca wanted to overthrow Georgiou. He would've been just as bad, if not worse since he thought she went soft even in Season 1. Empress Sato was probably just as bad as well.
 
As with lots of time travel you always have the fish out of water appeal. The idea of a Borg Queen assimilating people also gives you some "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" horror possibilities and having Q become the President of United States to secretly help out because he is dying and wants one more adventure with his old friend Picard.
I'm not sure if Q was born at all, and if he was it wasn't in the United States.
 
As with lots of time travel you always have the fish out of water appeal. The idea of a Borg Queen assimilating people also gives you some "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" horror possibilities and having Q become the President of United States to secretly help out because he is dying and wants one more adventure with his old friend Picard.
I suppose, but honestly, to me the Borg, Q, and the whole "bring our heroes back to the modern day" thing have all been done to death. Q wore out his welcome back on Voyager, the Borg had stopped being scary looooooong ago, and from Gary Seven to Henry Starling we've seen the "come back to the present" trope enough times already.
 
The whole premise of Section 31 is that they are BAD. Not that they are a necessary evil but just that they are evil.
I don't think it's ever been quite so simple, certainly not as originated in Deep Space Nine. They are presented specifically as a mirror to Bashir's idealism. They do bad, and indeed evil, things, but it's ultimately up to the viewer to decide if the ends justified the means.

The fact that "good" people like Admiral Ross are willing to decide that they are a necessary evil means it's more nuanced than you say. Our characters equally do things that we might judge as evil. This is the show where the captain used biological weapons on a planet and was complicit in multiple murders in order conduct an astonishing case of interstellar fraud which lead to the deaths of tens of thousands of Romulans and Remans. Another character is a terrorist. Another is an assassin who attempted the same genocide as Section 31. They are three of the most popular Star Trek characters.

I think it's quite clear that the show quite rightly thinks that Section 31 perpetrating genocide is evil, and Sloan is punished for that. It's Bashir's compassion for Odo and urge to right that wrong that ends of the war.

Other depictions in the franchise don't present Section 31 as purely evil either. Discovery's Section 31 aren't particularly bad - obviously Leland literally does become a malevolent force, but he's not under his own will. Prior to that they're behaving as a standard black ops group, having an agent effectively running the Klingon Empire to prevent another war.

The point of Section 31 ultimately is that humans, and the Federation more broadly, have no moral high ground and will act in their own interests when pushed. This is a running theme of Deep Space Nine - Quark memorably says that humans are only a few missed meals away from becoming more violent than the most bloodthirsty Klingon.

So I do agree that the original intent has been eroded in their appearances post-DS9, and they have become a normalised part of the franchise, not one that really shows the Federation in extremis. But I don't think it's quite right to say that they were always intended to be "just evil".
 
Plus, I know the topic has been beaten like a dead horse, but I still find it odd that she was picked as a protagonist in a Trek film. I get it, flawed character seeking redemption is as classic as it gets in terms of storytelling, but the comparison to someone like Hitler is not without merit. Does an audience actually want to watch someone like that seek redemption?
Short answer: it depends. I see people looking for Vader to gain redemption and rejoin the Republic rather than dying.

Hell, look at Loki; Captain America compared him to Hitler as well and someone the Loki character ends up coming back, trying to fight Thanos, and getting his own show! :wtf:

The biggest thing for me about Georgiou is that she wasn't raised to be better. She didn't have a Federation to model morality or demonstrate a better way. She grew up with kill or be killed and it showed.

While I don't care for every aspect of the MU I think Georgiou was an interesting, dynamic, character who showed both the great darkness of humanity and the intense possibility when someone decides that they're going to the person a more excellent way.

their appearances post-DS9, and they have become a normalised part of the franchise, not one that really shows the Federation in extremis. But I don't think it's quite right to say that they were always intended to be "just evil".
Definitely agree with this. They were shown as morally dubious at first. Ross somehow doesn't get treated as an evil admiral for using their assistance.
 
Picard season 2 was a good idea, executed terribly. The idea of the crew coming back to modern times could have been lots of fun. Especially if Q acted like Q. Guinan acted like Guinan and they dumped all the stuff with Ice and Picard's dead mom and focused on the Borg Queen causing mayhem.
I got lost the moment that the Borg Queen started wrecking cars so that she could power up on the sulphuric acid of car batteries? :confused:
 
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Again, a show about a Star Trek intelligence agency could be cool. But everybody who writes TV (and it's been this way for a long time) wants to write a John le Carre style "There is no good side and no bad side but only different sides" anti-morality play.
Something done more like Slow Horses would be cool. Sure, let them be screw ups, but have their ideals in the right place.

I'd also liked to have seen them do more with Raffi and Worf being Intelligence.

A show like that could have shades of grey, and even ambiguity, while still being 'the good guys.'
 
I got lost the moment that the Borg Queen started wrecking cars so that she could power up on the sulphuric acid of car batteries? :confused:
You know, you and I don't see eye to eye on much, but yeah, Agnes Jurati eating early 21st century car batteries may be peak stupid for Star Trek. Period.

That is just one of many reasons why Season 2 was an almost complete dramatic misfire.
 
Season 2 has the Jurati musical number. That's a win.
I agree, this little number is actually one of my highlights of Star Trek: Picard season 2.

I often play this song as I am driving home at the end of a hard day. :techman:
[snip]Agnes Jurati eating early 21st century car batteries may be peak stupid for Star Trek. Period.

That is just one of many reasons why Season 2 was an almost complete dramatic misfire.
Don’t forget about the endorphins….
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