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Insurrection is a good film

Coops said:
I'd just like to add that Insurrection has a more positive ending than it's more popular older sibling, First Contact. At the end of Insurrection, as you'll remember, the Ba'ku are allowed to live on unmolested and Picard is making plans to get it on with Anij (well, when he has the time to, total player!).

At the end of First Contact, the main characters wave goodbye to all the new friends they've made WHO ARE DEFINITELY DEAD WHEN THEY GET HOME. Worra a buzzkill.
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Ah, but we have no idea what the fate of the Ba'ku really is; all we know is that Our Heroes intend to go back to the Federation Council with what they've learned.

The council could say, "Admiral Dougherty was acting with our full authority; WTF were you doing out there?" They could say, "Once you knew the Son'a and Ba'ku were the same people this became an internal matter and you should have withdrawn from the conflict." They could say, "Why didn't anyone ask the Ba'ku if the Son'a could settle on the other side of the planet?". We witness the climax but not the resolution, just like when Voyager arrives at Earth in "Endgame".

But, longer-term...the cat is now out of the bag regarding the Ba'ku planet, and unless Starfleet is going to play protector for a non-Federation world, there's likely to be all kinds of issues with people who hear about the planet seeking it out to settle there, if not try to steal the radiation again.
 
Very true. While some people might not like the idea of absolute and irrevocable immortality (as seen in "Tuck Everlasting", where most of the immortal characters had regrets), the ability to stop aging for as long as one wishes would certainly appeal to many if not most.
 
DonIago said:
Ah, but we have no idea what the fate of the Ba'ku really is; all we know is that Our Heroes intend to go back to the Federation Council with what they've learned.

The council could say, "Admiral Dougherty was acting with our full authority; WTF were you doing out there?" They could say, "Once you knew the Son'a and Ba'ku were the same people this became an internal matter and you should have withdrawn from the conflict." They could say, "Why didn't anyone ask the Ba'ku if the Son'a could settle on the other side of the planet?". We witness the climax but not the resolution, just like when Voyager arrives at Earth in "Endgame".

But, longer-term...the cat is now out of the bag regarding the Ba'ku planet, and unless Starfleet is going to play protector for a non-Federation world, there's likely to be all kinds of issues with people who hear about the planet seeking it out to settle there, if not try to steal the radiation again.
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It also condemned many of the Son’a to death I think. Dougherty mentioned the process would take too long to positively affect many of them.

Plus, unfortunately, Dougherty was right. 600 Abercrombie & Fitch models vs the rest of the cosmos? I’d have put a line in saying the Federation had been lied to and it only affected the Baku DNA. That would’ve tidied it up a treat.
 
If you want a more positive option, end the film with the Ba'ku agreeing to let the Federation set up a research station and perhaps medical outpost of some sort on the far side of the planet, to protect the planet, perhaps provide care to the most needy individuals, and study ways that the rings' radiation can be harnessed in a less destructive manner. Besides providing a sense of closure, it would paint the Ba'ku in a better light.
 
Coops said:
Plus, unfortunately, Dougherty was right. 600 Abercrombie & Fitch models vs the rest of the cosmos?
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The real issue is what I call the DIG trope, DIG being short for Dying Is Good. A person offered an immortal life must refuse for some reason or other. It's been around since at least ~700 BC, since Odysseus turns down an immortal life with Calypso to return to Ithaca (and basically exterminate its unmarried male population). While love (especially romantic love) is often the reason for choosing mortality, sometimes it's the exact opposite: Winnie's choice in "Tuck Everlasting", for instance.

This is the third time it has proven possible for pretty much all Federation citizens to live indefinitely. And once again, it doesn't happen.

Coops said:
I’d have put a line in saying the Federation had been lied to and it only affected the Baku DNA. That would’ve tidied it up a treat.
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Yes, a nice way to technobabble out a solution. Well done. :techman:
 
I won't be surprised if a future Lower Decks episode off-handedly establishes that there's a resort on the Ba'ku planet where you can go for a true "freshen up".

Coops said:
Plus, unfortunately, Dougherty was right.
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Except that destroying a self-sustaining resource to create a finite version of the same thing is insanity.
 
Oddish said:
Shades of the fable of the goose that laid the golden eggs...
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Exactly.

Assuming Dougherty is telling the truth and it's not a rogue operation, the Federation partners with some Dominion collaborators to ignore the Prime Directive and destroy a literal fountain of youth within Federation space just so that they can make some medicine.

Genius plan. :shifty:
 
Timby said:
Hey, now, that's not really fair.

It was a CH Flightstick Pro.
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Shame, the auto-fire function would've helped considerably.
Tosk said:
Exactly.

Assuming Dougherty is telling the truth and it's not a rogue operation, the Federation partners with some Dominion collaborators to ignore the Prime Directive and destroy a literal fountain of youth within Federation space just so that they can make some medicine.

Genius plan. :shifty:
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As covered in the movie, the PD is irrelevant in this case, they had warp capability, they weren't indigenous. As I mentioned in a previous message a little bit of technobabble would've tied up this loose end - the metaphasic radiation, for whatever reason, only had regenerative powers on the Bak'u. What are the odds?
 
Coops said:
As covered in the movie, the PD is irrelevant in this case, they had warp capability, they weren't indigenous.
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It doesn't matter if they're indigenous. It's still the Federation interfering with the development of another species. If nothing else, it's the Feds claiming territory and then just treating anyone who happens to be inside it however they want to, which is fucked up.
 
Tosk said:
It doesn't matter if they're indigenous. It's still the Federation interfering with the development of another species. If nothing else, it's the Feds claiming territory and then just treating anyone who happens to be inside it however they want to, which is fucked up.
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Of course it's fucked up, there'd be no movie otherwise.

The Prime Directive makes me laugh, though. It's an excellent plot device but it begs the question; all those vessels that don't have TV shows, when they encounter a doomed species on the brink of annihilation, rather than save them do they just go "oh well, them's the breaks" and move on? That's cold.
 
Once it was established that the Ba'ku and Son'a were the same civilization, the Prime Directive did apply, for the same reason Our Heroes couldn't get directly involved in the Klingon Civil War in "Redemption"; it was an internal matter.

Besides, if the Ba'ku were able to kick the Son'a off their planet originally, it's unclear to me why they couldn't simply do so again.
 
Coops said:
Of course it's fucked up, there'd be no movie otherwise.

The Prime Directive makes me laugh, though. It's an excellent plot device but it begs the question; all those vessels that don't have TV shows, when they encounter a doomed species on the brink of annihilation, rather than save them do they just go "oh well, them's the breaks" and move on? That's cold.
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The term is "evolved."

Picard: "You were right not to try."
 
USS Firefly said:
Didn't the Son'a left the Ba'ku planet?
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Involuntarily.

PICARD: You would kill your own people, Ru'afo? ...Your own parents, ...brothers, sisters. ...Didn't you know, Admiral? The Son'a and the Ba'ku are the same race.
SOJEF: Picard just told us. Our DNA is identical. ...Which one were you? Gal'na... Ro'tin...
RU'AFO: Those names, those children are gone forever.
DOUGHERTY: What's he talking about?
SOJEF: A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders. They tried to take over the colony and when they failed...
RU'AFO: And when we failed, you exiled us to die slowly.
ANIJ: You're Ro'tin, aren't you? ...There's something in the voice. (turning to Gallatin) ...Would you be his friend Gal'na? ...I helped your mother bathe you when you were a child. She still speaks of you.
PICARD: You brought the Federation into the middle of a blood feud, Admiral. The children have returned to expel their elders, just as they were once expelled. Except that Ru'afo's need for revenge has now escalated to parricide.
 
DonIago said:
Involuntarily.

PICARD: You would kill your own people, Ru'afo? ...Your own parents, ...brothers, sisters. ...Didn't you know, Admiral? The Son'a and the Ba'ku are the same race.
SOJEF: Picard just told us. Our DNA is identical. ...Which one were you? Gal'na... Ro'tin...
RU'AFO: Those names, those children are gone forever.
DOUGHERTY: What's he talking about?
SOJEF: A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders. They tried to take over the colony and when they failed...
RU'AFO: And when we failed, you exiled us to die slowly.
ANIJ: You're Ro'tin, aren't you? ...There's something in the voice. (turning to Gallatin) ...Would you be his friend Gal'na? ...I helped your mother bathe you when you were a child. She still speaks of you.
PICARD: You brought the Federation into the middle of a blood feud, Admiral. The children have returned to expel their elders, just as they were once expelled. Except that Ru'afo's need for revenge has now escalated to parricide.
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My bad, thanks
 
And why they couldn't simply wave their hands (or whatever they did the first time around) to do so again.

The best explanation may be that they had tech available to them at the time that they've since dismantled, but, as with many story aspects of the film, the details are glossed over.
 
Mytran said:
I'd be more interested in HOW exactly the Ba'ku exiled their young rebels...and not just from the settlement, but from the ENTIRE PLANET!!!
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I'd always assumed the young rebels left on the same spacecraft the Ba'ku had arrived on, and they probably drove them away with threats of doing tapestry for decades, endless vegetable farming and nothing but beige clothing to wear.
 
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