Spoilers Lord of the Rings TV series

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Cyrus, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. Takeru

    Takeru Space Police Commodore

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    For legal reasons it's not a prequel to the PJ movies but in reality it kinda is because the events of those movies still happen in the future of the show's universe.

    Sauron's a major player, he's directly involved in several major events the show will definitely cover, there's no way to not show him doing stuff and manipulating people because during this age he actually did it in person.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2022
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  2. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Sauron is one of the least mysterious villains going. Galadriel talking with a disguised Sauron?

    The elves problem was that they were greedy for a world as unchanging and imperishable as themselves. They were easily manipulated by that longing in them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2022
  3. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    Sauron in the Second Age is similar to a certain well-known politician and cult personality in ours - charming the coat off your back to wear for himself in the middle of a blizzard. Many were deceived but some, including Galadriel, immediately sussed that he was a wrong 'un. She seems to be taking longer to intuit Halbrand's underlying malevolence in this series if he is indeed Sauron in disguise.
     
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  4. Takeru

    Takeru Space Police Commodore

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    Do we know how quick Galadriel actually was doing that? By elven standards it would probably considered to be immediately even if it took her a year or two so the show has some wiggle room.
     
  5. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    Gil-galad also distrusted Annatar immediately. As you say, there's wiggle room to have this distrust develop a little more slowly as he and Galadriel realise there's something off. Celebrimbor drank deeply of the Sauron Kool-Aid but later realised his mistake, of course. Having Halbrand suddenly become a master at forging objects imbued with magic seems doubtful, but I assume he's first going to hone his craft in Númenor and then journey to Eregion.

    It seems unlikely that Galadriel will accompany Halbrand all the while he's tooling about with smithing. She's desperate to get back to Middle-earth. To her, he's just some guy she met in her travels. I can't see her interrupting her quest just because she thinks (wrongly) that he might be useful as an ally.

    Halbrand's actions so far seem geared toward his own agenda. He is a manipulative and dishonest dickwad though, so even if he isn't Sauron in disguise after all, his path is likely toward Sauron's side.
     
  6. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Just like humans have the problem that they are greedy for physical immortality and that's how Sauron manipulated them.
    All the Dwarves wanted was more gold and create and collect more awesome things, which is what they got out of the rings, and why they were so difficult to manipulate by Sauron.
    That's actually one of the things about Middle Earth that don't make that much sense to me. Mortality is the defining characteristic of humanity from their creation on, and an inevitable death not caused by being killed or abandoning your body voluntarily with the associated fairly rapid ageing process was a punishment because the first humans started worshipping Morgoth and performed human sacrifices in his honour (iirc)
    However...the Dwarves seem just as mortal and, even though their ageing process is slower it also leads to an inevitable death of old age. Even more, while mortality and an exit beyond EA is explicitly called the gift of humanity, nobody is quite sure what happens to Dwarves after they die (even the idea that some of their important chieftains are re-born among their number is just a cultural belief among the Dwarves without concrete proof or divine assurance).
    Yet the Dwarves never seem to mind this. They don't look to extend their lives or attain physical immortality. They just seem fine with it.

    They're like: "Yeah there's a chance I completely cease to exist in 30 years or so, but look at this neat jewelled necklace I made!"
     
  7. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    In the Sil. the Dwarves say Aule assured them a place in the Halls of Mandos and that they will work with him on the building of the next world. And as Illuvatar told Aule the Dwarves would have a place in the music I'd be inclined to agree with the Dwarven view.
     
  8. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    A strange thing about Middle-earth is that there doesn't seem to be a formal, organised worship or cult of Eru Ilúvatar.

    In letter 142 from 1953, Tolkien wrote:
    Eru was revered but not formally worshipped. In letter 153 from 1954, Tolkien states:
    The Elves have some religious-like practices such as singing hymns to Elbereth and making pilgrimages to the Palantir of Elostirion. However, Tolkien did not seem to imply anything organised with a priesthood apart from the cult of Morgoth. I expect this is because many Elves had direct experience of interacting with Maiar and even Valar, who did not demand grovelling obeisance.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2022
  9. Jedman67

    Jedman67 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't think Halbarand is Sauron, it seems too "petty". I like the theory though
    I just assumed this lady was Sauron. Although he could shapeshift at will.[​IMG]

    RoP is not a "prequel" to the Peter Jackson films. The only connection is that it takes place in the same fictional universe, some three thousand or so years before the LotR (in book lore, it would be closer to 6,000)
     
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  10. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, 4,840 years before or thereabouts. I believe that "guy" is a female actor from New Zealand, whose name I've forgotten.

    ETA: Her name is Bridie Sisson.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
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  11. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They say they believe so, while some lore masters of the Elves claim Dwarf souls return to the Earth and become precious minerals or metals.
    It's just weird to me that the Dwarves seem to be able to be chill on a vague belief, while humans cling to life even though their "gift" of leaving the world after death comes from the highest source.
    Of course its possible that their dread is a result of their sinfall.
     
  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which is why making him a mystery in the Rings of Power is so odd to me. I prefer more how he went about his plan than just a "Whodunit" type question.
    I think it comes down to what each race wants to master. The Dwarves want to master the Earth and can demonstrate it quite well. Mankind wants to master their fate and what happens to them before and after death. If they decide to die in the name of a greater cause then that is more assuring to them. Or establishing great monuments, like what the men of Gondor did in creating great tombs and memorials. But, ultimately, they want the power to shape their fate, their mortality, and look with jealousy at the Elves for their gifts.
     
  13. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Morgoth corrupted humanity's understanding of Illuvatar's gift. No sin or fall involved. I'm satisfied with Illuvatar and Aule's understanding about the Dwarves. I don't see Tolkien making the Dwarves without souls and an afterlife so I think it's a safe bet they are hanging with the children of Illuvatar after the world is mended. He did call the Dwarves his adopted children.
     
  14. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Except that there was a sinfall in Tolkien's mythos, as detailed in that text in Morgoth's Ring where Finrod talks with that human "wisewoman" among all sort of metaphysical topics; Morgoth's beguiled the first humans to worship him instead of Eru and as a punishment Eru shortened the lifespan of humans and the "Earth turning against them" and all that.
    It's the vague "shadow" the Edain are fleeing from in the Silmarillion.
     
  15. Jedman67

    Jedman67 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Edain were given the "gift" of mortality. The Numenorians were given an extended lifespan of 300+ years (close to 500 for the line of Elros) better health, etc as a gift for fighting Morgoth.
    Those that began to envy immortality (and the elves for having it) grew old and frail faster than their predecessors. Part of the Gift of Illuvatar allowed those of Numenorian descent to "give back their life" when they felt their time had come, while those who did not ended up dying with dementia.
     
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  16. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sorry, I don't quite get what that has to do with what I wrote?
     
  17. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    No, there's no sin in Tolkien's Middle Earth. None. Tolkien did not repackage Catholicism.
     
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  18. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Of course he didn't repackage it, but he didn't shy away from the predominately Catholic themes within his work which governed his life. He would not call it sin, but often referred to it as a "fall" and the efforts to redeem the creation. In terms of his mythology Mankind's fall is not a part of the story.
     
  19. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Themes, not analogies.
     
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  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, I believe that's what I said, and am quite aware of Tolkien's distaste for allegory. That it isn't a direct analog doesn't make it less relevant to Tolkien's thought process. Just reading his letter's in brief illustrates that.