decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Dal Rassak, Apr 5, 2013.

  1. Elias Vaughn

    Elias Vaughn Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Location:
    The Internet's Biggest Jurati Fan
    And even if it weren't, are we sure the idea of third party arbitration being legally binding wasn't part of Bajoran law?
     
  2. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    In real life, arbitration is a thing.

    As for why it wouldn't be a Bajoran law thing, it involves a citizen of Cardassia and potentially two citizens of Cardassia depending on how we view Rugal.

    I.e. not just Bajoran law but an interplanetary incident.
     
  3. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Location:
    Montgomery County, State of Maryland
    And nothing in the episode establishes why the commanding officer of a foreign base located on Bajoran territory would be the arbiter. Think about how ridiculous it would be if a custody dispute over a Russian child left behind after the fall of the Soviet Union and adopted by German parents were to be decided by the commanding officer of Ramstein Air Base.

    So what? Bajor is a sovereign state and the adjudication of custody disputes over children left on its territory is the right of the Bajoran state, not of the Cardassian state.
     
  4. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    Like 90 different things established in the episode says why:

    * Its a political hot potato
    * The Bajoran government is joining the Federation.
    * The Federation is the only party both the Cardassians and Bajorans would view as a third party.
    * "Bajoran sovereignty" is not yet an issue anyone is fighting the Federation over.
    * Sisko is a local religious figure.
    * Rugal's adoption is potentially illegal (which Sisko eventually found as such) and is a Cardassian citizen, not a Bajoran one.
    * Rugal's status as a Bajoran national is questionable as is as the children of occupying enemy forces.
    * The question of bias in Bajoran courts.
    * It's within the rights of Bajorans to pass it along rather than desire to deal with it. Which I suspect they did it for bias reasons.

    That's frankly not a legal argument that remotely would go without challenge, and would be challenged repeatedly. If an American child was left in Vietnam with a Vietnamese couple during the Vietnam War, American courts will definitely say the child is an American citizen and needs to be given back to American parents and can/would challenge it to happen in an American court.

    And yes, diplomats WOULD get involved.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2022
    danellis and Mr. Laser Beam like this.
  5. Tosk

    Tosk Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2001
    Location:
    On the run.
    Sorry, nine years is outside the Bajoran statute of limitations on replies. ;)
     
    Mr. Laser Beam likes this.
  6. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Location:
    The Black Country, England
    I purchased it out of habit / for completeness. The subject matter is not very appealing so it sat on my pile for some considerable time.

    I eventually read it. It's not "quite good", it's absolutely fantastic. One of the finest tie-in novels I've ever read and more than worth the effort.

    I then backtracked Una's other novels, not all of which are Trek related. She's wonderful.
     
    DonIago likes this.
  7. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Location:
    Kanto, Poké-World
    The legal issues aside, it still sucks to be Rugal. Trapped in a totalitarian society run by those who decimated those he sees as his people, and trashed the world he sees as his home. Add that to your list of Trek fates worse than death...
     
    kkt likes this.
  8. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    Yes, I'd be tempted to grow up and then move to some other place that's neither Cardassian nor Bajoran.
     
  9. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2014
    Rugal is one of those things where the 90s Trek formula really was problematic. His story wasn't over at the end of the episodes, yet we would never see him again.

    (and yes, I know there's probably something in the novelverse about him, I don't care)
     
    kkt likes this.
  10. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Location:
    Kanto, Poké-World
    He probably spent the rest of his life bitterly regretting chomping Garak. :sigh:
     
    FanST likes this.
  11. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2014
    Maybe that wasn't even very long. There's a chance that he was among the 800+ million Cardassian civilians slaughtered at the end of the Dominion War.
     
  12. trekfan_1

    trekfan_1 Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    Whether you believe the decision was right or wrong, in real life the court doesn't always get it right.

    For this reason I don't get to worked up about it. Personally though perhaps shared custody until he is old enough to do and go where he pleases would of been fair.

     
  13. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Location:
    Kanto, Poké-World
    Or that the Obsidian Order or the local secret police dragged him off long before that.
     
  14. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    Thankfully, the Obsidian Order was gone pretty quickly afterward.

    But yes, the Rugal story is one that is fascinating because there's no decent answer.
     
  15. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2001
    Location:
    Lynx Empire
    I must say that I was also surprised over the turn of the events.

    I mean, if someone had come up and told me when I was about 15 that those I always had regarded as my parents weren't my parents and that I actually did belong to a people which had oppressed the people which I saw as my people, then I would have been hysterical. Being me, I would probably never have accepted that and I would have try to run away from my new "home" as soon as possible and as many times as possible until I finally succeded.

    That's seen from my own point of view.

    I think that Rugal's welfare and wishes should have had priority in this case.

    Isn't there a book about Rugal? I have to read that one!
     
  16. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    Confederation of Earth
    The Never Ending Sacrifice
     
    Lynx likes this.
  17. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Location:
    Montgomery County, State of Maryland
    Courts are for political hot potatoes, not foreign military base commanders.

    It has applied to join. The application is pending.

    Not to get too pedantic, but any foreign state would be a third party in this dispute: The Klingon Empire, the Ferengi Alliance, the Romulan Star Empire, the Talarian Republic, the Tzenkethi Coalition, etc.

    Bajoran sovereignty is a recurring conflict in most of the first two seasons! Did you not see the "Circle" trilogy?

    This might be valid, but there's no line of dialogue that says this.

    Which is, again, a matter for the court system of the territory in which this crime allegedly occurred to decide. That's how court systems work.

    Which is, again, a matter for the Bajoran courts to decide.

    How is there any less bias in from an officer of a Bajoran military ally?

    Sure, but in real life that would not be an issue there would be consensus on. The idea of letting a foreign military base commander adjudicate the dispute instead of handing it off to the courts would be an extremely contentious issue. Recently-colonized nations do not tend to want large imperial powers making these kinds of decisions for them.


    The Cardassian Union can "challenge" it all they want; their "challenge" doesn't mean shit unless they're prepared to use military force. The Bajoran Republic is a sovereign state and has the right to decide for itself how to adjudicate this dispute -- and if such adjudication gets handed to the commander of a foreign military base, it is only by the authority of Bajor, not by the authority of the Federation.

    Sure they would. And they would quickly find that they have no authority in Vietnam and no authority over Vietnamese courts.

    Edited to add:

    But hey. Let's go with this (ridiculous and unrealistic) idea that the Bajoran government would be willing to let a foreign power adjudicate this dispute instead of asserting Bajoran sovereignty over crimes committed on their own territory.

    Why would they have a Starfleet starbase commander adjudicate this issue? Why wouldn't they request that a Federation judge or panel of judges adjudicate the dispute instead?
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2022
  18. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    For the same reason Starfleet asks him to command a station, lead huge fleets against the dominion, invade as an expert spy operative in the highest Klingon circles, lead all kinds of first-contact situations, be a diplomat in negotiations with other powers, explore the Gamma Quadrant, be a liasion between Bajor and the Federation ... and the Bajorans expect him to be a religious icon, their point of entrance to the Federation, their guarantee against the Cardassians, etc .... the guy is simply an expert in everything!
     
  19. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Location:
    Montgomery County, State of Maryland
    Uh-huh.
     
  20. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Location:
    Kanto, Poké-World
    I just rewatched the episode, and it does make more sense now. Since this was a clash of two alien cultures with very different laws, the situation called for arbitration, a decision made by an outsider who was deemed acceptable to both parties. Rugal's adoptive father suggested Sisko because he was neither Cardassian nor Bajoran. Sisko himself pointed out to his biological father that the Federation was allied with Bajor in this matter, but the latter said that he was a father, and was confident that he would decide fairly. And, while I don't personally agree with Sisko's decision, I believe that he did attempt to do so.

    This episode was made about the time of the highly controversial "Baby Jessica" case, where a court ruled that a biological father who abandoned the mother still had parental rights. It, or similar cases, might have inspired this episode.
     
    kkt likes this.