Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by B. L., Apr 18, 2019.

  1. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, "Timeless" Harry was much more compelling than Eternally Eager Ensign Kim Harry.

    But I meant more of an extended arc of him reacting the way an actual human being would react if they were stuck in an entry-level job with entry-level recognition while being asked to do obviously non-entry-level work.
     
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  2. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    :wah:
    That’s one of my favorite episodes!
     
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  3. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It’s not like he can quit and go to a better employer. He’s stuck where he is. I think there a lot of actual human beings who, in that situation, would just grin and bear it while occasionally grumbling a mild complaint.
     
  4. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    So many versions of Harry could have worked: a broken and cynical young person who's seen and gone through too much. An officer who's given up because there's no hope of advancement and just slides by. Or a guy who was just plain not cut out for Starfleet. We haven't had a truly broken character, a disillusioned one, or one of truly limited intelligence. And all those attributes could produce an interesting and unique character.

    But, they didn't do any of that. They made Harry eminently deserving of recognition and advancement, then denied him either and came up with truly laughable reasons for doing so.
     
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  5. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think I figured out what Kim's middle initials stand for.

    Harry S.L. Kim is... Harry Shitty Luck Kim.
     
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  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think there's also a lot of humans whose morale and work performance would erode. My company's going through a merger right now and especially with the people who aren't being retained I've seen it happening.
     
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  7. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Nobody ever claimed that all humans are the same. Just that there are a lot who would respond like Harry, so his response isn’t unrealistic.
     
  8. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    While I completely agree that a company itself would be reason to lose interest due to the culture, backstabbings, etc., I firmly believe people generally don't leave companies... they leave because of their bosses.

    Perfect example: while I saw Whole Foods become worse and worse over time due to the Amazon buyout, and was not really very happy there for quite a long time, I stayed for years more because I had a fantastic Team Leader. He wasn't just a good boss, but someone I could actually like and respect. He got his hands dirty... he was never afraid to get in the trenches and help everyone else out. He was always open about anything, and would be the first to train you on anything new. He always had his people's backs. And more than that, he was fair, about all things.. He decided to leave June of last year, and when he told me that, I started looking for something else, because not only did I feel the time was right, but our Team lost the only real ally it had left. I found something else 3 months later, and left Whole Foods. I was with them 9 and a half years. (My feelings about Whole Foods are also colored by the fact they have treated my mom badly since her accident there. Still can't walk properly and in terrible pain daily.) I still keep in touch with him, and we've had dinner from time to time since.

    My point for sharing this is because Team Leaders/Managers/whatever other title are key to retaining good people. A company may fail their employees, but when your boss fails you, it's that much more personal.
     
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  9. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Alright, then I'd argue that Janeway failed Harry by not promoting him.
     
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  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Good Shepherd.

    She failed plenty.
     
  11. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    Sounds like WF were pretty bad, and you're well rid of them.

    Problem is, Janeway wasn't painted as a team leader who encouraged apathy or poor performance. Just the opposite, really. Indeed, she inspired ridiculous levels of loyalty. She was followed blindly by everyone except a Cardassian spy and one single Maquis traitor.

    There are plenty of explanations people come up with. She wasn't really promoting Tom. She secretly hated Harry. Harry was incompetent. But, there's no canonical evidence supporting any of these theories. Because in the end, this was a decision by the showrunners. Whether it was a childish vendetta or simple incompetence, the end result was the same.
     
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  12. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know whether everyone's levels of loyalty to Janeway says as much about her skills as a leader (it appears to contrast with at least some of the onscreen evidence) as it does about the mentalities of those who served under her command.
     
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  13. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's an interesting question and observation.

    The situation they were in, decades from home, probably colored their view a bit.
     
  14. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wonder whether Chakotay considered in "Equinox" whether the benefits of removing Crazy!Janeway from command would outweigh the potential morale hit that would ensue in at least the short-term.
     
  15. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    I expect that he probably at least considered it.

    Just as Tuvok had to make the decision to risk contacting the Vidiians for morale's sake, three years earlier.
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It does kind of beg the question of whether Janeway would have ever conceded that she'd behaved in a way such that she was (let's say temporarily) unfit for command. It could have been an interesting arc to see Janeway as part of the crew but not in command, and needing to adjust to that.

    Personally I feel Janeway's apparent difficulties ever acknowledging that when it counted made her a weaker captain, not a stronger one, and TPTB's seeming efforts to paint her as consistently in the right didn't help.
     
  17. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Tuvok even was about to get on Janeway when she was giving up Ransom to the aliens, but he was shot down quickly by her, asking if he wanted to join Chakotay being relieved.

    Some consequences should have happened to her afterward, at least for a few episodes.
     
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  18. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    In her defense, probably. Janeway is her own worst critic.

    This is the disadvantage of a show that jumps up and down on the Reset button the way VOY did. They can't have the CO or another character go sabbatical, like Sisko in "Tears of the Prophets".
     
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  19. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In "NIGHT", Janeway locked herself in her quarters for weeks. We don't see it because it was established in dialogue, but it proves that it can be done.

    She doesn't have to necessarily be absent, like maybe she goes to the holodeck to try to work things out or talks to The Doctor in some sort of therapy sessions. Something. Anything.

    Ultimately, lack of consequences for characters is one of the reasons why Ronald D. Moore left the show so quickly. Damned shame, because he would have made a big difference for their final 2 years. Especially considering "SURVIVAL INSTINCT", his only solo script there.
     
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  20. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    Catastrophically. Combine it with that reprimand, and Harry'll be lucky to get a posting on the USS Salvager, the 2380 equivalent of a trash truck. Or a post counting the self sealing stem bolts at Logistics Outpost Five Alpha. Something grim and thankless anyway.

    They had the opportunity to leave the tin can and live on an actual planet. None did. Not even the Maquis renegades, or the assistant chief engineer who got passed over for the person who assaulted him. We're talking cult leader level appeal here.

    I'll go along with that. Crazy ironic that the decorated Starfleet captain went off the rails, and the Maquis renegade has to try to reel her back to sanity.

    That would be difficult, seven years dealing with characters this static. Compare Harry to someone like Nog, or even Bashir.
     
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