Fans of the early TNG Ferengi?

DS9 showed them as much more nuanced than TNG. Maybe not with Zek and Ishka but with the others, especially Quark, Nog and Rom. Quark was always crafty and called the Federation on some of its hypocrisies.

In TNG they were much more one dimensional and came off as pathetic. Always lacking basic common sense and self awareness, always easy to trick.

 

They were still mostly comedic on DS9, nuance aside; there are simply more to chew on, basically.

 

The point was to remove the negotiator from the table. Maybe they didn't show his eye being drilled out or some crap, but it still was a villainous act.

Haven't seen the Marauder-free DS9, and don't care about your "Pulaski hates Data" revisionism.

 

Did you just say you haven't seen DS9 after previously accusing DS9 of turning the Ferengi into space clowns?

 

I've seen a bit of DS9, not interesting. "Comic relief" was already brought up with no apparent objection, but now I'm being told they were nuanced.

 

"Comic relief" was already brought up with no apparent objection, wasn't me. I've just been responding to people talking out of their ass about TNG. Is that wrong?

 

True. They're quite profit motivated, like pirates, but also a great deal more willing to take risks and push boundaries.

 

DS9 gave the Ferengi more nuance, and a culture that went beyond "they force their females to wear clothes". Unfortunately, it promptly dismantled said culture, but at least it created it in the first place.

 

Yes. Now go watch Duet and think about what you've done.

 

How so?

 

In "Profit and Lace", their institutionalized sexism ended, apparently overnight and with only brief repercussions (a woman fighting for equal rights in today's society can tell you... it doesn't work like that). And in "The Dogs of War", they went from a state of pure capitalism where everything is for sale and nothing's free to basically Federation 2.0!

 

I'll have to rewatch those episodes. Thanks for the excuse!

 

"Heh heh hehhhhhh!"

 

You may not be as happy after watching Profit and Lace. That one's a stinker for the ages.

 

I liked the ferengi in TNG. Not as good to be some sort of villains like the Cardassians became later but still good enough to show up from time to time.

But they were better in DS9, thanks to characters like Quark, Rom, Nog, Brunt and Zek.

 

The character of Quark basically salvaged the entire concept of the Ferengi for Star Trek.

 

I don't think any other Ferengi will ever be able to top "Picard Captain" as a form of address.

 

I was thinking more of "Rascals," where they're defeated by a group of 12-year-olds.

It did not dismantle Ferengi culture -- it depicted it as a complex society with competing factions and competing ideologies, where one of those ideologies started to gain traction and overcome the formerly-dominant ideology.

It's certainly fair to argue that DS9 was not realistic in its depiction of cultural evolution, but that's not the same thing as dismantling Ferengi culture, and the new Ferenginar that Ishka, Zek, and Rom herald is not Federation 2.0.

Zek's and Ishka's reforms are established to include:

• the levying of progressive income tax
  • bribes as deductible from said taxes
• wage subsidies for the poor
• retirement benefits for the aged
• health care for the ill
• banning monopolies
• environmental regulations
• equal rights for women
• labor rights for workers
  • including a ban on sexual harassment of employees by employers
• a legislature called the Congress of Economic Advisers

That's it. This is still a fundamentally capitalist society -- the economy is still based on the private ownership of the means of production, market competition for scarce goods, and economic inequality. This could, at best, be considered a form of social democracy -- but really it's not even that, since the Grand Nagus remains an unelected ruler who chooses their own successor, rather than it being decided by popular vote or by the legislature.

That's a pretty far cry from the anti-capitalist Federation where all material needs are provided for free of charge, no one needs money, there is no inequality, and the President is democratically elected.

 

I think DS9 made them too likable. But I also think Enterprise's treatment* of them was handled well, and blended the two takes on them decently. They were certainly not the 'boogeyman monsters' that Encounter at Farpoint made them out to be, but they let us see the side of them later TNG shows did - you still couldn't trust or turn your back on them. They were raiders, plain & simple. Sure, they had to show a 'good face' to the Federation when they took-over DS9, but that was supposed to be more of a 'con', which unfortunately got all wishy-washy with Nog and Rom. And don't even get me started with all that nonsense with their mom and the Grand Nagus. But in Enterprise we got that feeling back that they'd kill you (and maybe eat you) if no-one was watching, which is what they are supposed to be all about. They judge a situation and act accordingly, and if they can rob you, they will - they're bullies.

And I only saw Little Green Men for the first time about a week ago, and I loved that episode. Probably the only Ferengi-centric episode of DS9 I like. I loved that - as bad as Ferengi are - they pointed out so many 'barbaric' things humans did, which was a great reversal, because truly, a lot of the crap we've done other races would find pretty disgusting. So basically, we can have our cake and eat it to - Ferengi are well-behaved when they have to be well-behaved... otherwise, they are the same rotten jerks we started out with. And the way their government is setup, they can disavow any crew/ship that other species accuse of wrong-doing. It just works.