The Wrath of Khan vs The Undiscovered Country

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Khan 2.0, Aug 23, 2021.

?

which is best?

  1. Wrath of Khan

    78 vote(s)
    70.9%
  2. Undiscovered Country

    32 vote(s)
    29.1%
  1. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The compelling motivation is status quo and the maintenance of it. Fear is rarely very logical, but it is extremely motivating and taken to the extreme can result in behaviors that make no sense, unless you understand the fear.
     
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  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Fair enough. Mileage will vary, etc. etc. I found the conspirators more believable than Khan, as far as driving force. Well, aside from the Romulans because they were barely in the film.
     
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  3. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I definitely found the villains and their motivations in TUC to be pretty lackluster. One of the most insincere exchanges of dialogue in the whole film is when the random Captain at the briefing says “Bill, are we talking about mothballing the fleet?” and the C-In-C responds with, “Well, I’m sure our scientific and exploration programs will be unaffected, Captain…but…”

    It’s crazy to think that Starfleet would undergo any kind of major disruptive change simply because the Klingons were no longer a military threat. There are still Romulans, Gorn, Tholians and any number of unknown potential adversaries, not to mention all of the other “mission charters” Starfleet routinely engages in that are dangerous and have risk of conflict.

    It was played up in the plot to make the “fear of change” motivation angle more compelling, but it falls flat for me because it’s utter manufactured nonsense.

    I find Khan (as well as Kruge and Sybok) to be much more interesting and captivating adversaries than Chang and Admiral Cartwright.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2021
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  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sybok and Chang are probably top villains. Kruge is too annoying to be enjoyable and Khan is too annoying.
     
  5. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't find Khan or Kruge even slightly annoying.

    Catherine Hicks, though...totally.
     
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  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe annoying is the wrong word. He isn't enjoyable to watch despite Montelban's performance.
     
  7. GNDN18

    GNDN18 270 Rear Admiral

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    [​IMG]
     
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  8. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Valeris being the traitor was spelled out all throughout the movie, also there wasn't a red herring character on board the Enterprise to dissuade me from my suspicions. Having Saavik as the traitor, originally conceived, would have been shocking to you, for me it would've been just as predictable and absurd as TUC's ridiculous plot. Most of my life I had to bare the version with the Scooby Doo mask reveal where I thought Meyer missed an opportunity to have non-bumpy head Klingons on board the Enterprise and the perpetrator could've stirred the pot for the conspiracy. I think the Theatrical version is somewhat better but its no "The Wrath of Khan" where every element had a purpose and made the movie better as each concept was placed through the duration of the story.

    TUC had too many flashy tics (Pepto-blood, timeclocks on the bridge, bridge cracky paint job and worn out signs, united nations prison aliens on a Klingon penal colony, and shape shifting aliens that amounted to nothing) that I just didn't care about. Making the crew bigoted racists was a big no no for me especially when it appeared the crew resolved some of their differences in TFF. Expressing some concerns about peace with the enemy is one thing but saying and visually expressing disgust and contempt for the ones they encountered is just out of character for these heroes. I never felt it was necessary to sh*t smear on these heroes to make that ridiculous story progress and including Saavik would've just added on that steaming pile. I'm with you, TUC is not a bad movie, it's just not as good as the other ones.
     
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  9. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Its very strange and amusing to see how these villains, with the exception of Sybok, started out being interesting characters in the first half of the movies they're in and by the second half they all seem to be yelling and screaming and quoting things to the hero. Desperately trying while failing to capture the gravitas of Montalban.
     
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  10. ichab

    ichab Commodore Commodore

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    I love both, but if for me TUC has the edge.

    Now here's a far better question, : Judging the quality of these two movies and their box office in relation to their shoe string budgets.......why in the world did Nick Meyer not get better directing opportunities? These movies are over thirty years old and still hold up as does Time after Time. Studios should have been jumping at the chance for him to direct their franchises.
     
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  11. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Because you're wearing your Rose colored glasses, but to get your answer take a look at Meyer's work after TWOK and you'll see a steady decline in his work. Meyer did have a tragedy that happened to him which also didn't help his career but it was clear to me the director of TWOK was long gone.
     
  12. ChallengerHK

    ChallengerHK Captain Captain

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    Is there anywhere I can read up on that?
     
  13. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Of the 6 films starring the TOS cast. TWOK and TUC are my favorites and in my opinion, the best of the hexalogy.

    TUC used to be my number one for years. But TWOK has won me over. Nothing like that swashbuckling adventure and the Enterprise fighting cut throats and outlaws on the final frontier. TUC has a good mystery and story. With a truly awesome finale.
     
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  14. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Meyer talks about the death of his wife in his book The View From The Bridge.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
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  15. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Has anyone here seen the other theatrical movies that Nicholas Meyer directed? There was Volunteers (1985), The Deceivers (1988), and Company Business (1991). I'm not sure how well these are generally regarded, but that's half of his body of cinematic directorial work. There were also TV movies The Day After (1983) and Vendetta (1999).

    Kor
     
  16. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think that if Saavik had been in V and VI her arc could have been more layered. I would not have wanted to see her as a cold logical killer but more as someone who was conflicted and unsure that the ends justified the means so that Kirk and Spock could persuade her back from the brink.
     
  17. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The View From The Bridge
     
  18. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You know, I think Leonard Nimoy was okay with the successor when he was over with Star Trek, but once he revitalized with the franchise making him a director and resurrecting his character, he had no interests in a character sharing the limelight. Kirstie Alley had a lot to do in II and her screen time is not wasted in that movie; she was so involved in that movie I was looking forward to seeing her again. As boring as Robin Curtis' Saavik was Shatner could've had her involved, I'm sure there's an avenue where Sybok could've been the genesis of her defection which could lead to 6. Good idea, Pauln6!!!
     
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  19. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I have and they were not very good. Why don't you see them for yourself?
     
  20. WarpTenLizard

    WarpTenLizard Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This is even a contest? One is considered a classic, to the point of being known even to folks outside the Fandom. The other has a funny line about Shakespeare in Klingon, a Vulcan with a bad haircut, and a dude with dinosaur-duck feet.