The Wrath of Khan vs The Undiscovered Country

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Khan 2.0, Aug 23, 2021.

?

which is best?

  1. Wrath of Khan

    78 vote(s)
    70.9%
  2. Undiscovered Country

    32 vote(s)
    29.1%
  1. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Alien 3 is one of the prettiest bad movies I'd ever seen. It's a total F you to Aliens and had the gall to make a futile attempt to display sympathy and investment towards rapists and murderers. The movie is disgusting in all levels, but the production design along with the cinematography was outstanding.
     
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  2. Damian

    Damian Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, the set design definitely fit the mood of the film. Dark, dingy, almost gothic.

    It's a depressing film. I don't need everyone to live happily ever after like a Hallmark movie all the time. But my God, you killed 2 of the 3 survivors in the first scene and Bishop is all but dead.

    Then Ripley finally died too. I can maybe get behind her sacrifice if Hicks and Newt survived. Then you could say Ripley sacrificed herself to save Newt and others like her. And it would have been interesting to see Hicks interacting with the inmates. That could have added some tension. And Ripley would have had the added stress of keeping an eye on Newt around the inmates...and their reaction to her.

    A lot more potential for a good story if they kept the survivors from Aliens alive.

    I did like the Alien effects in 3 too. And like you noted, the cinematography was pretty good, esp. from the viewpoint of the Alien.

    Probably didn't help that the movie went through 57 rewrites
     
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  3. Damian

    Damian Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah. Have to part ways with you there :lol::nyah:

    The only reason I even have it on DVD is it was part of the box set I got. I've tried to watch it again here and there but age hasn't helped.

    But I do like the occasional hated movie. I liked Exorcist II: The Heretic for example. I think that movie is hated more than Nemesis and Alien 3 combined :lol:. But I liked it :whistle:
     
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  4. publiusr

    publiusr Admiral Admiral

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    TUC puts everything else in the Refit era in a new light. A Section 31 series where Reliant’s captain wanted to use the Genesis torpedo to off Khan… might be interesting
     
  5. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Commodore Commodore

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  6. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Definitely true. Those of us who have experienced any kind of trauma know very well that strong reactions can still come up years after we already thought that we were "over" that thing.

    Kor
     
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  7. JamesRye

    JamesRye Captain Captain

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    I'll always prefer VI to TWOK. I love it for many reasons, the cinematography, the last hurrah of the original cast and for its cleverness. We were still in an age where films had 1 or 2 stand-out VFX sequences - rather than modern movies where incredible special effects are a given. We got the morph, we got that explosion effect that was copied by Star Wars and the cool assassination scene.

    Revisionist Trek historians will tell you that the TOS movies were not that popular BUT Star Trek VI would be the 15th highest grossing film of 1991 and have the best opening weekend of any movie up to that date. Star Trek VI had a worldwide take of around a hundred million dollars from a twenty five million dollar budget. This profit excludes VHS, DVD and now Blu-Ray sales and UHD and streaming come to think of it.

    And now, if anyone is interested - I shall go on a rant about why I love the movie so very much.....

    Star Trek VI is notable as one of the first movies to deal (allegorically at least) with the collapse of the Soviet Union. As such, the movie is important, for it deals not only with the ending of an important peice of popular culture, but aims for historical significance as well. In one early exchange, Kirk is upset that he is to be the first olive-branch to peace as he is so close to retirement. Spock retorts with the line “Only Nixon could go to china…” meaning that as Kirk is infamous in the Klingon Empire, no-one could accuse him of being sympathetic to the Klingon cause or doubt the sincerity of the Federation towards peace.

    Furthermore, General Chang’s line, “Don’t wait for the translation! Answer me now!” is a reference to Adlai Stevenson’s similar demand of Soviet Union representative Valerian Zorin at the United Nations in 1962 whilst debating over the Cuban Missile Crisis.

    Further depth is added to the film by having the Klingon General Chang declaring that ‘You have not read Shakespeare unitl you have read it in the original Klingon’. According to director Nicolas Meyer, this was a reference to Nazi Germany’s attempts to claim the bard as their own. The use of Shakespeare underscores the political nature of the plot.

    When General Chang states that ‘no peace in our time…once more unto the breach, dear friends’, the character is mocking British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain who in a speech regarding the Munich Agreement said that “I have returned from Germany with peace in our time.” Ironically of course, less than a year later, Germany declared War on the Allies.

    One of the major themes of the film is change, and how people react to it. By the end of the film Kirk has realised how predjudiced he was against the Klingons and was initially reluctant to attend the peace talks. Even Spock, who saw the logic in peace asks of Kirk “is it possible that we two, you and I, have grown so old and so inflexible that we have out-lived our usefulness. Would that constitute….a joke?”. An especially nice line of dialog as it could equally well refer to the ending of the original Star Trek movies and be construed as Nimoy asking the question of Shatner.

    The actors who began playing their roles in the Kennedy/Vietnam years went out holding a mirror up to the then new era of Gorbachev, Glasnost and Clinton. Speaking of the actors, the original cast members all get a chance to shine and put in great performances. The supporting cast of David Warner, Christopher Plummer and Kim Cattrall also make their mark.

    I love how well this movie ties into multiple plot strands on The Next Generation, from Unification Part 1 and 2 to Yesterdays Enterprise and more episodes besides. Star Trek had developed into a modern myth that was neatly bound together in Homeric fashion. How much of this was by accident or by design I am not sure.

    The film is replete with allusions to death, endings, and time’s passage. For instance, Chang quotes from Henry IV when he leaves the Enterprise: “Have we not heard the chimes at midnight?” This lends a melancholic feel to the denonument of the movie and a sense of regret that we won’t see the original cast together again. The stirring music accompanied by the cast literally signing off is quite emotional.

    For me, Star Trek VI is the best of the Original Series movies, a culmination of all the movies that came before it. It combines the epic scale and ideas driven plot of The Motion Picture with the action and excitement of The Wrath of Khan, the emotional heart of The Search For Spock, the humour of The Voyage Home and the sense of family that was explored in The Final Frontier. Its the perfect swansong for the Original Series and elegantly passes the baton on to The Next Generation.
     
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  8. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And then "Generations" came along and detracted from the great sendoff of TUC. :scream:

    Kor
     
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  9. JamesRye

    JamesRye Captain Captain

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    Generations was the most disappointing movie that I ever saw. Until 1999.

    I have to say though, that as the years have gone by, I've mellowed on Generations. I see what they were going for now. Three men, thinking about (and/or seeking) immortality in completely different ways. There is some ambition there.

    But yeah, the film doesn't mesh well and large chunks are pretty boring. I've always wondered why the TNG cast in this one whisper so much of their dialog. And the poorly edited battle scene with re-used footage still grinds to this day. I find elements of the saucer crash sequence are not wholly convincing. It’s quite a primitive element for a film franchise that used to push the boundaries of visual effects technology. Having said that - its more involving than the similar sequence in Beyond.

    I don't think TUC would have benefitted from a higher budget - but Generations really needed another $10million spent on it. Better costuming, a more interesting Enterprise B and a new class of Klingon ship for the Duras sisters. Also, a better director and a more filmic score.
     
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  10. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    WRATH OF KHAN is a film that I feel has some flaws but is carried by a number of things that have both aged well like wine and also been hurt by imitation. It is easily the best performance of the Big Three, IMHO, and also where they have managed to put behind them their backstage drama as well as put forth their best performance.

    But a large part of what makes the movie work is the fact it also does much better a theme in the previous movie which is: Captain Kirk has royally screwed up. Much of what makes the movie work is that Kirk is the "Old Batman" (perhaps too early at age 52, especially in the 23rd century) and is no longer a pulp adventure hero.

    His wits have been dulled by semi-retirement and his need to make himself feel relevant have led him into a trap. Khan represents the culmination of many past decisions that Kirk has put out of his mind. As put by better men than me, "Khan has spent every day for 15 years thinking about Kirk, Kirk has not spent that time thinking about Khan."

    Even the relationship between Kirk and Carol Marcus is interesting as a deconstruction of Kirk because as a Pulp hero, we find that Kirk had a failed marriage with nothing particularly epic about it and is arguably a deadbeat dad depending on who you blame, if anyone, for Kirk's absence in his son's life. Not something you expect of Superman or Batman (but who both have had it in movies and comics).

    Ricardo Montalban manages to strike that careful balance of chewing the scenery like it was a four course meal but never devolving into camp. Khan is insane but it's not used as an excuse. It's in every one of his actions and choices. Even if you've never seen "Space Seed" and there was a very good chance you didn't given the lack of DVD, VHS, and streaming, you were able to piece together the rough plot.

    Part of why "WOK" imitations always fall so flat is the fact that the context for the movie is almost never there. Nero, of all of them, actually comes closest because at least he's someone driven by the failure of an older Spock. But most of the time, they don't have the oomph they need because the writers don't have the will to state, "Our hero has royally screwed up and this situation is the result of his own failures."
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
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  11. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I hate to say it, as your love for the film is obvious, but ranking out at #15 in annual box office is not really anything to celebrate, nor is clearing 100M in the international box office.

    TVH finished 5th at the box office
    TSFS finished 9th
    TWOK finished 6th
    TMP finished 4th

    It ranks 10th overall in the movie franchise, beating out only TFF, NEM, and INS.

    It certainly did not have the highest opening weekend, especially considering Terminator 2 opened at 31.8M and TUC opened at 18.1M

    I think it was generally well-received and well-reviewed as a film, but it certainly wasn't a "big hit."
     
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  12. JamesRye

    JamesRye Captain Captain

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    Whoops, I should have said it had the highest opening weekend gross of the series. My mistake.

    A quote from Wikipedia - bolded bit by me:
    The Undiscovered Country opened in 1,804 theaters in North America and grossed $18,162,837 in its opening weekend; the showing was a record for the film series and was the top-grossing film of the weekend.[100] The film grossed $74,888,996 in North America, for a total of $96,888,996 worldwide.[3] The Undiscovered Country's strong showing was one of the big successes of 1991, a year in which the film industry experienced disappointing box office results overall.



    WorldWide (not US domestic) box office,
    STVI ranks no.13
    STV ranks 21st (it would be lower on domestic alone)
    STVH ranks: 5th

    It would be hard to expect the movie to hit the box office of TVH after the disaster that was V. I think it also opened in fewer cinemas than V did.

    I used this site for box office numbers:
    https://www.the-numbers.com/box-office-records/worldwide/all-movies/cumulative/released-in-1989
     
  13. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The smartest thing Paramount did was release VI in December than what was done with V in the heart of the blockbuster months of the summer against Indiana Jones, Batman, Lethal Weapon 2, Ghostbusters 2. I'm sure all this B.O. praise would've been a lot different if the great VI was released opposite Terminator 2: Judgement Day, City Slickers, The Naked Gun 2, Backdraft, Hot Shots, Thelma & Louise, and The Silence of the Lambs. During that era Theatre owners ordered more reels for a movie for the summer than in other seasons, if V was released in the winter which it should've been I think it would've made equal B.O. numbers.
     
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  14. Damian

    Damian Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Releasing in the winter isn't always the best either. It depends on the competition.

    Nemesis was released in the winter, yet it went up against a Harry Potter movie, Lord of the Rings movie and a Bond film (Die Another Day). Bad move. I think that had a lot to do with why Nemesis did so poorly out of the gate.

    Now, while I freely admit I did like Nemesis, I have no illusions that it was any sort of blockbuster film. It's not on the same level as TWOK, Star Trek (2009) or even First Contact in that respect. I personally considered it a middle of the road film (jettison the ridiculous B-4 subplot and the Kolarus scenes and that probably would have helped). But had it been released at a less 'crowded' time for blockbuster films, I believe it would have fared better than it did at the box office.

    But yes, Paramount was smarter with TUC's release date then they were with TFF. TFF still managed to pull in respectable numbers initially and even topped the box office the first week, but there was a lot of competition that quickly dragged it down. It didn't help that there was a lot of bad buzz going on about the film at the time. My father was probably a good example of the general movie going public's attitude for TFF at the time. My father was just a casual Trek fan. He absolutely loved TWOK with TUC coming in at a close second. He hated TFF. He went to see it once and never watched it again. And that was the general attitude at the time about TFF after the first week, so that didn't help the film either.
     
  15. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My dad and my 1st brother completely missed Star Trek V because he claimed the theatres in NYC would have the movie during the day time and then the reels would be switched in night hours for Batman. My understanding was back then the multiplexes were not the standard and theatres didn't keep all movies for their entire run.
     
  16. Damian

    Damian Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I lived in South Jersey at the time. We had one multiplex theater, an AMC theater that had 8 theaters, which was a big deal back then. Otherwise most theaters around where I was just had 2 theaters. That's where I saw Star Trek V. I don't recall them having more than one movie in the theater on the same day. Usually they would just have whatever 2 movies they were showing, and not more than 2 or 3 weeks usually before they were sent to the more budget oriented theaters. And back then (in the dark ages :lol:) it was a big deal if a theater had stereo sound.

    I think nightly movies were usually $5 and matinees usually were around $2 or $3.

    I know, I'm probably making myself sound ancient right now :lol:

    I was really excited to see TFF at the time though. I was just a nubie fan when TVH came out (though I saw that in the theater as well) and had only just started watching the original series. By the time TFF came out I had seen all of the original series and TNG had just finished its 2nd season. And one thing that I loved at the time was hearing Jerry Goldsmith's theme during the credits in the theater.
     
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  17. Maurice

    Maurice Snagglepussed Admiral

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    Those are pretty meaningless because a) inflation and b) distribution patterns changed since TMP came out.

    For instance, TMP set a record weekend in 1979 but didn't go into wide distrubution until two weeks after its opening weekend. So in fewer theaters it made less money than it would have had it opened all over the place as later films did.
     
  18. dupersuper

    dupersuper Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What gave you the idea he and Carol were married?
     
  19. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They had them in the Autobiography of Kirk so I decided to trust the author over my 20 year old memories since I last watched it.
     
  20. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It seems pretty clear to me that Kirk not being involved in David's life was Carol's choice. ("I did what you wanted. I stayed away. Why didn't you tell him?")
    I think that TWOK also had a big advantage over the other Trek movies in that they were building off of "Space Seed" from 15 years before. Trek fans knew who Khan was and why he was a threat. As Harve Bennett said, a weakness of STIII in his mind was they had to bring Kruge out of nowhere and make him into a devil. This was also an issue with Chang in STVI and the villains in the various TNG and Kelvin movies. Less so in STIV and V, as The Voyage Home didn't really have a villain and Sybok in The Final Frontier was more misguided than evil. Most every other villain in the movies was trying to be Khan in one way or another.
     
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