My DS9 Rewatch Odyssey

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by ananta, Jan 5, 2021.

  1. oldtrekkie

    oldtrekkie Captain Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    I think she mentioned being a Ranjen at some point. That's below Vedek, as far as I know.
     
  2. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    I thought a Vedek was a leader of a religious order, but I'm not sure if the show ever said for sure.
    Ranjen was an order of monks or nuns, I think. The Kai's servants were Ranjen.
     
  3. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Location:
    Farscape One
    Great review.

    While it may seem odd that the marriage is what the Prophets refer to, I actually find it quite believable. As a married man, I can tell you that I look at my wife differently as a wife than when we were simply together. I know many might disagree that love is love, and while I agree that is true, your mindset and priorities change when you move from boyfriend/girlfriend to marriage. Notice how it wasn't until they got married that they started living together. And while living together is certainly not the only way Ben and Kasidy would have sex, it definitely makes it easier to have it more often... and with all the stuff that happened in the time between this episode and him forgetting to get his shot, coupled with the almost certainty they would have sex more often because they are living together, a baby is a likely result. Given how the Prophets exist outside time, they could very well have known this, and the only thing I can see being a more sorrowful thing than leaving a wife behind in the living realm is leaving a wife AND baby.

    Kai Winn... I love her character, but I don't find her redeemable. She was power hungry and selfish. She covered that with the veneer of religion and faith. And she used people for her gains, like Neela when she coerced her to try to assassinate Bareil. Louise Fletcher played her marvelously. (I've met her, and she is so completely NOT like Winn or Nurse Ratched. Very sweet, lovely woman.)

    The Breen... like the Tholians, we hear only tiny pieces of dialogue over the years and they are a mystery. In some ways, the mysterious nature of the Breen makes the a big threat... I actually think they are more secretive than the Romulans, and that's saying something. Everything about them is a mystery... you can't see them because they are in that outfit, nor can you understand them. No one is even fully sure what their shups are made of, since Data speculated they had organic technology. Even Weyoun is baffled because their homeworld is very comfortable but everyone thinks it's a frozen world, which apparently tracks since the Breen have superior cold storage knowledge. (Sisko even comments on this in "FOR THE UNIFORM".) This makes it irresistible to bring them on, from the writers perspective. That unknown invites danger and menace, because we've seen them hostile once before in "INDISCRETION".

    While it does seem like a ridiculous coincidence that this Breen ship happens to be the one to be meeting with Weyoun, I can forego that due to tv logistics. Plus, it gave us a few great scenes on Cardassia with Worf and Ezri, with one particularly funny one with Weyoun. :)

    Dukat... I may be crazy, but I actually think he altered the tone and intonations of his voice a bit while masquerading as a Bajoran. At least, here and the next episode... all before his 'Go back to the Prophets" speech, anyway. There was enough to maybe feel like the voice could be familiar, but it is just out of reach of identifying... from her view, anyway. He did play her like a cheap fiddle, but he was able to because he is so good at manipulation. Especially with someone as narcissistic and power hungry as himself.

    Agreed that it's a step up, and an 8 rating is right on the money.
     
    Cyfa, FanST and ananta like this.
  4. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Location:
    Farscape One
    I think a Vedek is the leader of an order, like an archbishop is in charge of a state or country's religious order. (If I understand Christian rankings right... I'm not religious.) A Ranjen seems like a Reverend.

    I liken a Ranjen to how an Admiral's adjutant is a Commander or Captain, while a Vedek is the Admiral in charge of a sector or fleet.
     
  5. ananta

    ananta Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2020
    “STRANGE BEDFELLOWS”

    [​IMG]
    As bedfellows go, they don’t get much stranger...

    Onto round three! It’s wonderful to see the writers throw caution to the wind and embrace the type of serialised storytelling the show was always so suited for. Much like the previous three episodes, “Strange Bedfellows” is mainly just setup and the grinding of cogwheels in motion. While in some respects it lacks the punch of the previous instalment, it’s nevertheless a strong episode on the whole.

    The title would seem to refer to the multiple elements at work here: specifically, the awkward and unexpected relationships between Kai Winn and Dukat, the Dominion and the Breen, the growing strife between Damar and Weyoun, the continued messiness of the Worf and Ezri relationship, and maybe even Sisko and Kasidy qualify here, given the difference it highlights in their relationship to Bajoran culture and beliefs. Oh, I suppose it could also refer to Kai Winn and the Pah-wraiths and the Pah-wraiths and Prophets. Deeeeep!

    I’ll start off where the episode begins; establishing the new alliance between the Dominion and Breen. Again, I was less than bowled over by this because no one really gives a stuff about the Breen (and the mystery of what’s beneath their helmet never got me particularly excited—this is 90’s Star Trek, after all, they probably just have forehead ridges). I also find them incredibly hokey—the ridiculously oversized helmets are fine if we’re just seeing the occasional Breen in the background, but now they’re in the spotlight it’s hard to escape the fact they just look a bit silly—and the less said about the decision not to translate their electronic mumbling the better. This is Star Wars kind of stuff (think R2 and Chewie), where they sound unintelligible to the viewer but all the other characters understand what they’re saying. It’s a stylistic choice that may have worked had the Breen only been featured briefly, but the longer they’re on screen the more I find them annoying and cheesy.

    Things are otherwise building nicely, however. One of the things this closing arc does brilliantly is set Damar on the road to redemption. He’s still not a likeable guy, but this marks the point where he really starts to get his shit together. He’s been under Weyoun’s thumb for nearly two years and he’s had to watch his world suffer and now be sidelined as the Breen take to the stage. One of the highlights of the episode is his reaction to Worf’s sudden murder of Weyoun 7–namely, uproarious laughter. It’s a fantastic moment and, thankfully, later leads to his setting Worf and Ezri free which is a great thing because I don’t think I could have stood another episode of them in a jail cell. Fortunately, I suspect courtesy of Ron Moore’s superior writing, their scenes are generally much better in this episode. I’m glad they finally manage to resolve their feelings and find the maturity to move forward and become friends (“and more”). I do like that they finally get to this point, even if it’s been tedious getting there.

    The highlight of this episode is without doubt Winn’s crisis of faith as she realises that it’s not the Prophets that are calling to her, but the devilish Pah-wraiths. For the most part, her arc in this episode is wonderfully written and it helps, of course, that we have the Oscar-winning Louise Fletcher giving it her all. She is brilliant throughout and perfectly conveys the depths of Winn’s horror, grief and ultimate rebellion against the Prophets. It’s an absolutely fascinating character study, and undoubtedly the best material Fletcher was ever given on the show. Her agony at being abandoned by the Prophets is palpable. “I’ll do anything you ask,” she pleads in a heart-rending scene, and you get the sense she really means it. “Am I so offensive to your eyes that I don’t exist for you anymore?”

    There was an interesting discussion on here, I think back when I reviewed “The Reckoning”, where someone suggested that the Prophets are at least partly responsible for the mess that happens simply because of the way they treat Winn; ignoring her and giving her the cold shoulder at every opportunity. Their cold rejection of her is never explained, because if they’d just given her the odd vision and made her feel validated in some way, she would never have turned against them and allied herself with the Pah-wraith. Is it possible the Prophets are responsible through sins of omission? All they needed to do was send her a brief vision here, expose Dukat, and that would have ended his little plan there and then. While I’m at it, rather than wasting their time protesting Sisko’s wedding (for no discernible reason) why didn’t the Prophets warn Sisko that something FAR worse was happening on the station right under his nose? Ugh, I guess it’s best not to examine the logic of this storyline too much.

    Amazingly, we see Winn almost start down a path to redemption here, and even seeking advice from Kira, of all people. It’s in that moment, however, that Winn shows what might be considered her true colours. She is devoted to the Prophets, yes, but NOT if that means sacrificing her own power. That’s the straw that breaks the camel’s back. It’s not ultimately the Prophets she really cares about, but herself and her own power and prestige (even if she still frames it in terms of, “but Bajor needs me!”). We see a switch flip inside her head, and I have to say Kira is at least partly to blame. If she’d been a little more subtle and started small rather than labouring the point that Winn has to step down as Kai, she probably could have steered Winn to a better and more redemptive path. But, then, Kira is often all too blunt, and prone to black-and-white thinking. It’s a great scene all the same, with both Fletcher and Nana Visitor in fine form.

    Unfortunately, things fall apart a little in the closing scene. All the nuance and subtlety is thrown out the window in favour of some moustache-twirling cartoon villain dialogue. As Winn declares her allegiance to the Pah-wraiths (which actually makes sense given they have offered her the validation the Prophets never gave her), Dukat declares “No one will be able to stand against us.” Indeed, it’s a wonder lightning doesn’t strike as Winn hollers “Those who dare to try—the Federation and its Vedek puppets, the false gods and their precious Emissary—will be swept aside like dead leaves before an angry wind!” MWAHAHAHAH! Tone it down, guys, we get it. There’s another such moment in the trailer as the Founder gets all melodramatic about her new alliance, declaring “With the Breen at our side, the Federation will not be able to stand against us. They’ll be erased from the face of the galaxy!” Switch to decaf, ladies.

    In spite of that tendency to go too Saturday-morning cartoon at times, it’s nevertheless a strong episode boasting a fascinating and brilliantly performed character study of Winn, one of the franchise’s most complex and morally dubious of characters, and Louise Fletcher simply aces it. Rating: 8
     
    StarMan, Cyfa, FanST and 3 others like this.
  6. Trekker09

    Trekker09 Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Location:
    VIrginia, US
    Excellent review of a compelling episode.
    Interesting that Louise Fletcher’s parents were both deaf...the vulnerability in her repeated laments that the Prophets never spoke to her, comes across, (Her father was a minister for the hearing impaired.)
    The lines by Dukat about the Emissary, who is black, and the PahWraiths making Bajor great again...eerie foreshadowing of 2017.
    Ezri and Worf are so much better this time.
    Love Damar finally changing sides.
    The one thing that seemed off to me was Sisko echoing Martok’s words about marriage being a long grueling battle, when Kasidy refuses to lead the blessing ceremony, saying she has not been converted. He never tried to make her Bajoran, and their relationship is anything but Klingon.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2021
    FanST and ananta like this.
  7. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    I actually kind of love that we never know what the Breen are really saying, and that all we have to go on is how other characters react to them. But then, I also love the novelverse's explorations into Breen culture. In any case, it seems clear that TPTB are building up the potential threat the Breen pose here, and while we don't know a lot about them, my recollection is that what we were seeing was enough for me to find it ominous.

    If The Prophets are to blame for Winn's fall from Grace, is Kira not also partly responsible here? If she could have been (or at least pretended to be) more empathetic, might she have been able to pull Winn back from the brink? One wonders whether she ever blamed herself to some degree for what would transpire in future episodes.

    As moustache-twirly as things get at the end, I'm not sure I find it all that unrealistic. In a way, it must be tremendously liberating to Winn (and vindicating to Dukat) for her to decide that she's going to stop wasting her time trying to appease entities that don't give a crap about her, and start working for the ones who (seemingly) do. IIRC, in later episodes we'll see that she does take a step back and spend a bit more time evaluating what she's doing/has done, so I'm willing to write this off as a 'Sure, when you make a deal with the Devil, it seems great at the time!' moment.
     
    FanST and ananta like this.
  8. Trekker09

    Trekker09 Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Location:
    VIrginia, US
    Here is Louise Fletcher in one of the old Western tv shows--"The Lawman"
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2021
  9. Trekker09

    Trekker09 Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Location:
    VIrginia, US
    ...and since Salome Jens is in this episode too, here she is in an early film, Angel Baby

    [​IMG]
     
    StarMan, FanST and ananta like this.
  10. ananta

    ananta Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2020
    Thanks for posting Vash. They both look amazing. Both such gifted actresses too. The quality of the casting on DS9 was just sublime—far and away the best of any Trek series.
     
  11. oldtrekkie

    oldtrekkie Captain Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    Great review! There is a lot of retconning in DS9 maybe even more than in the other series. Take the Breen for example, Kira and Dukat know what they look like since they stole their EV suits back in the fourth season when they rescued Dukat's daughter from a Breen camp. Also, Dukat talked about a Cardassian ambassador on the Breen homeworld so talking about the Breen as if they were some kind of mystery is a bit odd, you normally know a great deal about people you have normalized diplomatic relations with...Why did Damar need to have his UT adjusted with a people Cardassia had diplomatic relations with? Anyway... I think Kira really was the last straw. Sometimes she really needs to keep her trap shut. Why does she think it's her business to tell the Kai that she has to step down. Plus as one of the good guys she sometimes sucks, she attempted to kill her own mother in total disregard for the timeline, she freed a criminal just to please her boyfriend and other questionable decisions... She's not well-positioned to give someone moralistic lessons. It's a wonder people even seek her advice given that it's more often than not, all too predictable. The so-called prophets wouldn't have acted otherwise if their goal was to turn Winn into a renegade. Just as Weyoun did a lot to convince Damar to switch sides. Anyway, great episode, quite enjoyable.
     
    ananta likes this.
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Isn't one of DS9's primary assertions that nobody is 100% good or bad?

    I understand (sort of) why Winn reached out to Kira in her time of need, but it would have been nice if Kira had been a bit more aware that she wasn't a great choice to play Kai's Confessor in this instance. ...in fact, perhaps in some ways this is the closest Kira comes to becoming Winn, as she's given a great deal of power (at least over Winn, and indirectly over Bajor itself) in these moments, and arguably she handles it rather irresponsibly.

    I'm not sure how Kira and Dukat having seen Breen is relevant? They're not the characters interacting with them here. The part about the Cardassian ambassador does complicate things, but perhaps the ambassador wasn't given a great deal of access to Breen society.
     
    ananta likes this.
  13. oldtrekkie

    oldtrekkie Captain Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    I am not just talking about this episode but about how they talk about the Breen in this final arc. They seem to imply that the Breen are shrouded in mystery that nobody knows what they look like (under their helmets) or how their homeworld is like. Weyoun even said that contrary to what is usually said their homeworld is quite comfortable. You'd think that people who send ambassadors there would know about that.
     
    ananta likes this.
  14. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Given that we don't know the conditions under which the ambassadors were tolerated, we can't really say either way.

    Maybe it was "Sure; diplomacy is great. Stay on your ships and we'll conduct all negotiations by subspace radio."
     
  15. oldtrekkie

    oldtrekkie Captain Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    The way Dukat tells it, it's clear that the ambassador stays on the planet (a frozen wasteland according to Dukat).
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Maybe the Breen just made the ambassador believe that was their homeworld.
     
    kkt likes this.
  17. ananta

    ananta Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2020
    “THE CHANGING FACE OF EVIL”

    [​IMG]
    “No, that latest moisturiser did not work!”

    And we have a winner! After three episodes of build up, “The Changing Face of Evil” serves as welcome release of tension, culminating in a thrilling and horrifying battle against the new combined forces of the Dominion and the Breen. It also sees a major shift in the show’s ongoing Cardassia plot, with Damar inciting revolution and taking up arms against the Dominion.

    I actually don’t have a whole lot to say about this episode, but I’m happy to say it pretty much delivers on all fronts. First of all, we see the fallout from the Dominion’s alliance with the Breen and while this episode has a definite tendency to go with the sledgehammer approach, it’s highly effective nevertheless. A single shot of Starfleet headquarters—and San Francisco’s iconic Golden Gate Bridge—in smouldering ruins is one of the most effective of the show’s entire run. In spite of all the horrors Earth has faced before, including the Borg and the Changelings blowing up a Starfleet conference, we’ve never actually seen Earth in ruins before. It does perhaps make you wonder that if the Breen are REALLY this powerful why they aren’t already running the entire Quadrant. But, hey, they’re mysteeeeeerious, so nobody knows, or is likely to.

    Of course, true to life, this horrific turn of events ultimately leads to something hopeful, with Damar finally rising up to declare war against the Dominion. Not before, however, the poor Defiant goes up in flames. As momentous a moment as it is, I tend to forget it even happens. In retrospect, I guess the fact the Defiant will be replaced with an identical model (with even the same name and registry) in just a few episodes blunts the impact considerably. But it’s still a horrifying moment, and features some stunning pyrotechnics. One complaint I do have is that Avery Brooks’ performance is a little off this time around, and he delivers a lot of his lines rather half-heartedly and without the necessary fire, including his order to abandon the Defiant and even his later words to Admiral Ross lack conviction (“The Defiant was the finest ship I ever commanded, there will never be another like her.” Uhhmm, yeah, well, there actually WILL be...plus, she’s the only ship you’ve commanded, Ben). It works nonetheless, however, and benefits from some stellar directing by Mike Vejar, who keeps the pace tight and the tension levels high. Ira Behr and Hans Beimler’s script captures the escalating tension and the interwoven character vignettes of a season finale, and they do a great job juggling all the plot elements and bringing them to a rousing cliff-hanger.

    Winn and Dukat continue to be an enormously compelling double-act, with Winn finally discovering the heinous true identity of her mysterious “guide”. That happens, of course, courtesy of Solbor, who has been played with great finesse the past three episodes by James Otis. I particularly loved his seething disapproval of Dukat and simpering desperation as he sees the Kai slipping off the rails. His revelation makes for a dramatic climax, with Winn understandably sickened that she’s literally and figuratively gotten into bed with the devil. Of course, Winn’s top priority has, in fact, always been Winn, and she doesn’t hesitate to murder Solbor just as it seems he’s about to let her secret out.

    Admittedly, she’s horrified by her actions, and her instinct is to bring an end to everything there and then—if not for the fact, Solbor’s blood happens to reveal the text of the Kosst Amojan. She can sense the power being offered and its allure proves irresistible. While some of the fantasy elements perhaps veer toward hokey, I’m nevertheless loving this dark and twisted storyline and find Winn’s melodramatic fall from grace almost has a Shakespearean undertone. Dukat is already beyond redemption by this point—he’s clearly a radicalised loon intent on destroying everything, whereas Winn is still hesitant in spite of the fact her lust for power is overriding her better judgement. One thing is for certain, now the truth about Dukat’s identity is out, the power dynamic between them will certainly shift.

    The episode is crowned by a brilliantly written and delivered speech by Damar as he announces the Cardassian resistance. How the tables have turned! Having slowly been built up over the course of the past few episodes—and actually far beyond—it’s exciting to see the canvas of the show once again shift, and it makes for an exciting finale. Overall, “The Changing Face of Evil” lacks subtlety (as you can probably tell by the title alone), but it’s nevertheless an excellent episode that balances each plot deftly and provides some superb payoff. I don’t know if it’s quite the level of a 10 for me, but it’s definitely a highlight of this final chapter. Rating: 9

    By the way, most importantly of all, I think we can finally clear up the mystery of why the Prophets warned Sisko not to marry Kasidy. The real reason? The woman was gonna BURN HIS PEPPERS! Oh, the humanity.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    “Told you not to marry that woman. Did you listen?! NO!”
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
    StarMan, oldtrekkie, Cyfa and 4 others like this.
  18. Trekker09

    Trekker09 Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Location:
    VIrginia, US
    Really blown away rewatching this one....talk about ‘escalating tension’ - ! Terrific review of a riveting episode. Loved the illustrations / captions too.
    If the Breen are all that powerful, how come they aren't running the entire quadrant - good question.
    Nice little comic touches --Penny incinerating Ben's peppers, Bashir losing the Travis figure.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
    ananta, kkt and FanST like this.
  19. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    Wow! she doesn't look that much like she does in DS9 or One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest!
     
    ananta likes this.
  20. FanST

    FanST Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2020


    The scene where the Defiant was destroyed made my jaw drop at the time. Sisko looked and sounded completely defeated. The writers did a great job bringing in the Breen to the final arc.
     
    Sidewinder, DonIago, ananta and 2 others like this.