David's death is part of the larger poetry of the trilogy...and will resonate into TUC, so from a storytelling perspective, it's almost lyrical. OTOH, I feel sad for him and that we'll never know who he might have become, and obviously for Kirk as well. And if you go by the novels the whole thing devastated Carol. :/ I wish there'd been some way for the movies to do more with that.
Except it was such a drab depressing story that it served, it really sucks to sacrifice a character for it.
What were your original thoughts on the Kes character when she was introduced and did anyone had a thought on where she may end up before Lien was let go?
My original thoughts were that Kes was a very interesting and beautiful character. I did have the same objections to the nine-year lifespan back then as I have now but I thought that the writers would come up with something which would prolong her lifespan during the run of the show. I started to watch Voyager in the beginning of 1998 and found out about Jennifer Lien being fired a couple of months later so i didn't had much time to think about where the character would end up otherwise. But when I've watched the first three seasons of the show, I get the impression that the character was about to become more important as the show went on. There were also hints that the lifespan could be prolonged, as in Cold Fire.
When I was introduced to Kes I thought she was the inner light for the series because of her child-like nature and her unconditional kindness. I thought she would be one of the most important element for the crew in getting to the Alpha Quadrant. I love mystery and Kes was that.
Yeah, here's my original post. Care to share your original thoughts on the character of Kes, DonIago ?
Drab and depressing are still stories worth telling, and misses the broader strokes of that story. But, what do I know? I find Kirk's comment of "I feel young" at the end of TWOK to be completely out of place.
Honestly, who knows if any character actually ended up where they were expected to? The Doctor was supposed to be called "Doc Zimmerman", after his creator. Instead, they kept him nameless (and brought in the actual Zimmerman as a recurring character). Neelix was supposed to be the Han Solo of the series. He seemed more like a cruise director. And my fan fiction notwithstanding, I don't think that Chakotay and Harry were supposed to stagnate the way they did. Especially Harry, who seemed to have been written with major character growth in mind.
I'm not sure I had anything substantive. She's originally basically Neelix's Ocampan girlfriend with a short lifespan. Then she turns out to be able to learn quickly, which is nifty, and she takes an interest in the EMH when nobody else does, which is cool for both of them but not really insightful in terms of longer-term plans for the character. I think I always assumed that the series would involve her growing old and eventually succumbing to old age, perhaps in a way that also benefitted Our Heroes. I didn't really think they'd kill her off prematurely, as Trek is known for its Plot Armor. "Cold Fire" was the episode that threw some variables into that equation. Given that I've now seen some TV series be willing to jump months or years into the future, I wonder what Voyager might have looked like if it had been willing to embrace the promise of its premise to that level.
A consequence of Seven's arrival rather than Kes's departure, I think. Seven could have as easily replaced Harry or Chakotay, both equally sidelined characters.
No, they weren't. The ratings took a turn upwards just after Seven arrived, then they slowly went down, down, down in the coming seasons to a level lower than it had been during seasons 1,2 and 3. The BS about "Seven saved the show" are just Berman's and Braga's wishful thinking.
Keeping Kes would have been more interesting than Seven for my money. But, Voyager squandered a lot of potential, and I moved on from the show since it found its original premise to be just a suggestion, at best. Thankfully, several other science fiction shows showed up and I had better times with that.
Stargate saved me back then. I hadn't bothered so much about it before but after The Gift which lead to a two year absence from Voyager for me and since DS9 was unavailable on TV for me back then but another of my channels started to show re-runs of Stargate SG-1, I started to follow that show and found it quite entertaining and with good characters. Later on, after deciding to giv Voyager another chance and managing to catch up with the series by renting VHS tapes in a shop in my hometown, I was "rewarded" for giving Voyager another chance by being slapped in the face with the most insulting, horrible s**t episode ever made in the history of TV series, then I found Stargate Atlantis which I also found quite entertaining and with good characters. Unfortunately my new-won obsession with Stargate ended with the horrible Stargate Universe. Fortunately I managed to get DS9 on DVD and watch the whole series from beginning to end which opened up a new universe for me and somewhat restored my faith and interest in Star Trek. Not to mention that I still love the first three seasons of Voyager and there are also TNG and TOS to watch.
Farscape. SG:1. Invisible Man. Atlantis. Red vs. Blue. The variety of science fiction I had to enjoy was never lacking. Star Trek's outputs simply were not enjoyable so I passed on them. Universe didn't interest me so I past on it. I don't hold bad episodes against a series. I simply revisit the ones I like.
I understand it's difficult for you to add something to support this thread, but you could at least try to post something that is on topic. Honestly. The series wasn't better IMO, losing Kes lost the show's shining light and ruined the exploration for a new character to grow. Even the turns the showrunners were making for Kes, I still thought it presented some interesting development for her. Thank you. Taking a field in medicine would be the obvious choice for Kes since she had such an unusual lifespan and exploration of this phenomenon would be interesting to spring some subplots for a season finale. Mystery and understanding those threads could've been a nice basis for the series, Kes was a mystery and I felt was an interesting one. VOY was too invested in those cheap thrills like their little ship taking on all comers and all odds in a territory where they shouldn't. Those gimmicks did prompt up G.O.A.T. Janeway.
I discovered Voyager on its first BBC run, in the wake of the 30th anniversary. At the time, I was 10 years old. Also, I missed Caretaker and started with Parallax, so I didn't know anything about the concepts that went into Kes at that point. This was followed by Time and Again, where were only she remembered the bad timeline, and then Phage, easily my all-time favorite episode, in which she live donates a lung. I guess I just noticed that she was really nice. I asked about her race, and when I learnt from printed material that they had a nine-year lifespan, I hoped it was just a different local calendar. I only became aware of what it really meant when I saw Elogium. I came to love the fact she really was only two years old, and at that point her growing old and dying would still have been far in the future from my perspective, even if that was just seven years! Time doesn't go by so fast when you're a child. Besides, I knew nothing of what determines the lifetime of a TV show, and I was under the impression it might really last more than 70 years! Now that scared me! By the time I saw Before and After, I was ready to live her whole life with her. When I heard she had been dumped, I think I was disappointed, but I assumed that was the plan anyway. I knew nothing of the behind-the-scenes politics. Looking back, skipping Caretaker and its info dumps put me in a better position to grow to know and love the character. One aspect I never really liked, though, was her mental powers. I hated Cold Fire when I saw it. These powers became part of the shows moody, overly horror tinged feel, something the early Kes had actually provided some welcome relief from. I am certain she was developed in the wrong direction. Indeed, had I known the writers had actually looked into parapsychology for her, I would've avoided the show! The show retained this feel after she left, with all the dark stuff, and Seven's embarrassing catsuit. I lost interest in the show, and didn't find out about Fury until years later, after which I was inconsolable. I have struggled with the franchise ever since. I believe that is why I became a huge Orville fan, a Star Trek show not actually tainted by Star Trek's history. Speaking of which:
It looks like your story is similar to mine in many ways. I remember watching Caretaker, a great pilot episode and Voyager was the only show together with NCIS where I took an immediate liking to all the characters. OK, I had some doubts about The Doctor but after three episodes, he was a favorite too. My first impression of Kes was that she was very beautiful, that and her little speech to the Ocampa leader Toscat when she openly did defy him made the character very interesting, to say the least. OK, a similarity to a real-life person I once knew did affect me as well, if someone might wonder about my obsession about this particular Star Trek character. I never liked that nine-year lifespan. I found it simply a bad attempt of coming up with something unique. I mean, a species with such a short lifespan could never become more than primates. What I did like was Kes's personality, her courage, wit, curiosity and her way to solve problems by simply attacking them from another angle. There were lots of such situations when she did that, like in Jetrel when Neelix claimed that he was a coward while Kes stated that he wasn't because refusing to participate in a war which was wrong could have got him executed and therefore he was not a coward and in Resolutions where she persuaded Tuvok to go back after Janeway and Chakotay, something Kim had been almost court-martialed for when he mentioned that. We also had The Swarm where she really stood up for The Doctor and in the end found a solution which saved The Doctor so he didn't have to be re-started and lose his memory. I also like episodes like Persistence Of Vision and Cold Fire where Kes both times saves the ship from being destroyed due to her courage. My impression of Cold Fire is different from yours. it's actually my favorite Voyager episode because besides from having Kes as the main character, it's also spooky and very exciting. Kes is tempted by evil powers but due to her strength and willpower, she's able to resist the evil powers and save the ship and its crew. As for her powers in Cold Fire, that didn't bother me since they were only temporary. She lost them when Tanis and Suspiria left the ship. As for her powers, I prefer the limited powers she showed up in Persistence Of Vision. They were enough for the character and could have been used from time to time in future episodes. There were episodes where she wasn't the main character but really did shine during her minutes in the spotlight. After Cold Fire, where a solution to the lifespan problem was mentioned for the first time, I was sure that they would come up with a solution during the series. Unfortunately it never happened. I started to watch Voyager in 1998 and during that year I watched the first three seasons. I rented VHS tapes from a shop near the place where I lived and when the series started on a local channel, I'd already watched the first season. I tried to avoid certain Star Trek related sites on the net because I didn't want to know what was going to happen in DS9 and Voyager but after 5-6 months, in some way I stumbled over the fact that Kes had been dumped. First I was just sad because the first official statements was that "she had left of her own free will", which turned out not to be the truth. After a few weeks, I found out that she actually had been dumped and then I became really nasty. I must admit here and now that I wasn't a nice person back then. I took the debate about Kes's departure to such limits that I became very impopular here and there, something I regret now and therefore I would like to apologize to those who might have a memory of me from back then. Unfortunately, I took out a lot of my anger on Seven Of Nine which was wrong. OK, she's not my absolute favorite character but actually a good one and Jeri Ryan is a terrific actress. In fact, seeing Seven on Picard was one of the better things with that show and I guess that I see her in a different light now. However, back then I was really annoyed by the comments from those in charge that "they couldn't come up with ideas for Kes" and similar crap and that "Seven saved the show", sort of that sacrificing Kes saved Voyager which I found annoying. Anyway, after watching The Gift, I decided to quit watching the series. it took two years until I decided to start watching it again. First of all, I was curious to see what had happened to my old favorites and then there were rumors for a Kes come-back. So I started to rent video tapes again in ordet to catch up with what ahd happened. OK, I must admit that it wasn't as fun at it had used to be watching Voyager. Something important was missing. But worse things were about to come. Since I don't live in the US, my channel were about six months after the US airings of the series so I was warned by some friends in the US, some folks who used to post on this forum actually that the Kes come-back episode was horrible. Six months later I had to watch the worst episode i've ever seen in any TV series. Only sheer greed and real concern for the innocent people on the street below stopped me from throwing out my TV from my window and if I had been a nasty person before, I became downright disgusting then, I admit that. I stopped watching Voayger there and then and so far I haven't watched any episode after the season 6 crap episode, except for Endgame which was another terrible disappointment. And I couldn't stand Enterprise either. I considered it a big mistake to come up with a retro series, a badly done retro series too, something I still think it is. But I still had an affection for Star Trek. I still had TNG and TOS which I still found very good an there were also the first three seasons of Voyager to watch. DS9 was another story. Due to stupid policy from the channel I had which aired only the first season and problems with malfunctioning DVD records, it took me many years into the new milennium before I got the opportunity to watch DS9 from beginning to end and finally see what an excellent series it is. Sometimes I say that DS9 gave me back my interest for Star Trek and there is some truth in that. And one day I woke up one morning and thought. "That's it! I'm not gonna be a jerk anymore when it comes to the Kes debate!", a promise which I have trying my best to keep. In that case, I'm extremely grateful to the moderators of this forum especially T'Bonz who allowed me to come back here after a suspensíon I actually deserved. To the positive sides of all this is The Kes Website which I started just like a funny thing back in 1999 but which has turned into more than just a simple website for a Star Trek character. There are some things there which I'm a bit proud over actually which are the results of my imagination and inspiration. So I guess I owe that to Our Favorite Ocampa! As for The Orville, see my post below.
I realized that my previous post was about to be several miles long so I decided to make another one about The Orville. In fact, I wrote this in another forum but it sums up my feelings about Star Trek and The Orville: I actually like The Orville in a way. But watching The Orville is like......well, imagine if you are a hockey fan, let's say Chicago Blackhawks (if you don't like that team, replace it with your favorite team and if you don't like hockey, replace hockey with baseball, football, basketball or anything you like). You have cheered for your team for years, seen almost all homegames live plus the away games on TV and more and less lived for the hockey season. Then the owners decide to move the team to El Paso and call it "El Paso Chihuahuas"! Your world is shattered. You can't watch NHL anymore on TV because it's impossible for you to cheer for the former opponents of your team and you HATE the El Paso Chihuahuas with a vengeance. Just the mention of the team makes you wanna throw everything in your apartment out through the window, the only reason for not doing so is that you don't want to kill innocent people on the street below. Your friends are doing all they can to cheer you up and one day your buddy Chucky comes up with amazing news: "We do have a team in the town now, it's called Lakeside Gnomes and plays in the Central Hockey League. "Ah, crap" you think. But you decide to follow your buddy to a game. However, you discover that there are some differences. Instead of United Center with 22 000 seats, it's now Lakeside Arena with 4000 seats, the jerseys are red all right but not with Chief Blackhawk but an angry gnome. Instead of up to 18 000-22 000 cheering fans, there are now about 500 yelling fans, most of them drunk, instead of Chicago Blackhawks against Boston Bruins with a face-off between Patrick Kane and David Pastrnak, we now have the Lakeside Gnomes against Quahog Brewers and a face-off between Al Bundy and Pete Griffin. But all of a sudden you realize that you actually enjoy it in a way. It is at least funny and it's a hockey league where you don't have to get El Paso Chihuahuas stuck in your face from time to time. But it will never be the same as the real things in the good,old days. Not to mention that watching The Orville has hit some obstacles when it comes to my watching of the series. I've watched seasons 1 and 2, even the re-runs. But all of a sudden, the channel which have aired it no longer have the rights to it. OK, I can stream it for free but only seasons 1 and 2. Season 3 when it starts will obviously be on some other network and I'm already paying a lot of money for different services, I can't possible pay every streaming service there is. Well, I just hope that The Orville can be available somewhere where I can get it for a decent price.