Re-evaluating Problematic Characters

Thank you! Guess that answers my bible question, huh?

Downloaded, and will be eagerly devoured. Insight into what Gene was thinking, rather than what other people think he was thinking, is very welcome indeed.

A neat summation of the issues, and I can't help thinking the original concept might have been the better one, if, as you note, still not ideal for an episodic series. I really like your alternative suggestion, too; combine that with @Orphalesion's ideas, and you'd have a pretty strong character, I'd say.

All this is making me wonder, not for the first time, what a serialised TNG, or TNG-style series, would have been like. I guess a not-inconsiderable part of my discontent with current Trek series is I had hopes for such a thing, and they didn't pan out (in my opinion). Maybe if JMS's pitch had been accepted, and of course we don't know what else is planned by Kurtzman.

 

@CuriousCaitian I think it's also worth checking out what was and what wasn't changed as the seasons went on and Troi was cast. Here's a the pages about Troi and Guinan from the season 5 revision I tried to post earlier, as opposed to the season 1 bible I linked to - I wonder what Roddenberry meant by "lubrication"! https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1BKF8SxwPZrG9sw0e0WQw8X-yHkHSGC_o?usp=sharing

(PS - the link to your writing in your bio isn't working!)

 

Definitely! Thanks again. :-)

And if Roddenberry was what many think him, not too hard to guess. :-p

(PS - I know. Site, and account, got nuked when I wasn't looking. Changed to my AO3 for now, since much of what I write goes there anyway.)

 

In several ways! I read someplace that Gene intentionally didn't make her a full telepath and justified it by discussing how hard a full teep would have it; being constantly flooded by everyone's thoughts around her and so on. Don't remember where I read it.

That may be true in some fiction, but if true here, it should apply equally to the entire Betazoid race ... and we very quickly met Lwaxana Troi, for whom it was patently untrue. Gene's justification was only applicable to a main character.

It seems Gene had some unusual ideas about his own characters and applied different standards to them than everyone else. The "no conflicts" thing is another example. The Enterprise crew weren't allowed to squabble among themselves, but it was fine for them to meet (and have conflicts with) other Starfleet personnel who were misguided, corrupt, or just having a bad day.

No reason not to! But being the Ship's Smoke Alarm doesn't necessarily connect to her other roles as Ship's Therapist or Ship's Diplomat. It appears she had THREE roles, not two.

 

Yes that's what they claimed "full telepathy is hard man"

But...it was always complete and utter BS/laziness. There's enough fiction that features fully telepathic characters in very effective ways.

Read my third post in this thread for some ideas on what to do with a fully telepathic Troi:

 

Oh, I read all that. No argument. My beef was simply that Gene's objection to that didn't hold up even within the same work.

 

I don't know. Whenever I see telepathy portrayed onscreen whether on Trek, B5, Stargate, etc., it rarely seems to make compelling television. It's an actor staring intently at someone else trying to convey some kind of psi-ray or something passing between them. Usually the actor just looks a little silly.

And aside from the acting, personally I think the less pseudoscience gibberish in science fiction, the better.

 

That was exactly my thought when I wrote the post you replied on. Why didn't he make her a full member of a race of empaths? It would have avoided a lot of these problems. Perhaps he was still enamored by the success of half breed Spock and the dual cultural heritage thing?

 

Agreed. Regarding 'no conflicts among the crew', it's a bit of a double-edged sword; on the one hand, forcing writers to try something new, but on the other, potentially impeding character depth. Of course, you can go too far with conflict, ala Black Lighting, the first episode of which seemed to be all conflict between characters with zero chance to get to know them as people. It's a balance.

B5 did quite well with telepathy, for me, but yes, it is difficult to make work, and often didn't. And no argument about the technobabble.

Interesting thought! Maybe he wanted her to be unique, stand out, but if so he and the show went about it in fairly cack-handed fashion.

 

One thing I thought was funny about Troi...
She has Reginald Barclay in her office: she apparently has no idea that he is smitten with her, even though he's a few meters away and he's not exactly a poster child for precise emotional control.
She encounters the "Goddess of Empathy" on the holodeck: Judging by her sudden outrage, she realizes immediately what's going on. Even though her doppelganger is dressed more modestly than she is, makes no overtly romantic or sexual remarks, and (being a hologram) gives off no detectable emotions.

 

Well, knowing someone is smitten with you is a bit different from knowing they're smitten enough with you that they'll create a holographic reproduction of you. Troi likely knew Barclay was attracted to her ("smitten" seems a bit strong), but didn't think he'd act on his emotions in an unethical manner.

 

The impression I got was that Troi knew, but for whatever reason chose not to acknowledge it; possibly she thought, with him being so anxiety-ridden, bringing it up might do more harm than good. The Goddess, however, was pretty much impossible to ignore, and while not sexualised, certainly wasn't flattering, either.

The TNG Guide was fascinating reading. With regard to Troi, a fair amount of what we've discussed is actually there in one form or another, albeit undermined by crass objectification, but little of it appeared on screen. The more I learn about Roddenberry, the clearer it becomes he was as much a reason for that as the erratic writing.

If we think we've said all we can about the good counsellor, let me know, and I'll tee up the next sacrificial victi...I mean, subject for discussion.

 

Can we open a betting pool on who the next subject will be?

 

Assuming main cast characters...
Guinan: 1000-1
Picard: 500-1
Data: 500-1
Worf: 25-1
Beverly: 20-1
Riker: 15-1
Pulaski: 10-1
Tasha: 8-1
Geordi: 5-1
Wesley: Even

 

I'd put Barclay at 3-1.

 

Adjust Wes to 2-1, Geordi to 6-1, and Tasha to 10-1 to compensate.

 

I suppose all telepaths would really need for that is a perceptual filter -- same way we don't get mad in a crowded room full of people talking to one another, but just pick out 'our' conversation.

Oh, and I think O' Brien would come in at even lower odds than Guinan (that is, as long as we're talking about his character, not what he's doing in that transporter room all day).

 

Not entirely sure I'd agree with those odds. :-p

For clarification, I'm trying to focus on characters that wide consensus considers problematic. Troi and our second subject are clear examples, but others less so. For example, I like Geordi, he's one of my favourite characters, but if the consensus is he's problematic - and I'll freely admit he's not exactly overflowing with character traits - then he's eligible for examination.

In contrast, someone like Worf, who I find problematic, but I believe most people don't, most likely wouldn't be. This is why I asked for your suggestions!

Onto subject two, a young man most of you would apparently not hesitate to flush out of an airlock at the first opportunity, Acting Ensign Wesley Crusher.

While I don't share such strong feelings regarding him, I certainly struggle to find anything especially likeable about him. I can only think of one decent - Evolution - and two partly-decent - The Dauphin and The First Duty - episodes that focus on him, while in contrast, he's key to at least two heavily flawed ones - Datalore and The Game - and one so legendarily awful I dare not speak its name.

Unlike Troi, I'm honestly not sure he was a good idea in the first place, especially if, as suggested by some, he was little more than an idealised Roddenberry self-insert. For some reason, young prodigies rarely ever seem to work out in TV - see also Adric in Doctor Who - and he was no exception. Would more humility or self-doubt and less cliche teen pettishness - for want of a better word - have helped? Unsure. Not having such a dreadful episode so early on might have.

As to how he could he been done better, beyond greatly improved writing, I struggle for suggestions other than those already noted. Your challenge, therefore, should you choose to accept it: find a way to make Wesley a better character, or at the very least a less punchable one.

And again, thanks for your contributions; delighted with how this thread is going so far!

 

When Wesley was treated as a teenager, or at most a trainee, I found him unobjectionable. When he was saving the ship with his genius and heroics, not so much. There are plenty of teen empowerment stories for teens and preteens (like Hunger Games, Catnip or whatever her name is brings down tyranny and restores freedom yadda yadda yadda). Regular Star Trek need not be one of them. Prodigy, targeted at a specific demographic (though of course we're going to watch it too because of Kathryn Janeway), can do it all it wants.

A classic example of Wesley done right, early on, is "When the Bough Breaks". Wesley didn't come up with a genius solution to save the ship. He simply organized the kids to resist their captivity. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I think one of the problems about Wesley is also how isolated he was as a character; he never had friends or a girlfriend (or boyfriend for that matter)
I like the idea of showing the civilians on the ship, and I think the presence of a character like Lal for example could have done good for Wesley since he would have had other teens to interact with and relate to.

Even Jake (who was vastly better done than Wesley) had Nog to hang out with.
Give Wesley one or two secondary characters like that and they could have been our eyes into the civillian life on board the Enterprise.
Of course considering that the show was made int he 1980s and that they would have been adolescents you get the danger of all their storylines devolving into PSAs ("Tonight on a Very Special Episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation... Can Wesley help his friend defeat his addiction to Klingon crack?" )

Or you could go the other route and reduce him to a secondary character who is only important in the way Dr.Crusher and Picard relate to him as his mother and pseudo-father.
Interestingly early on there was an idea that he would share a sort of a brother-sister bond with Tasha. That would have been interesting to see, really and could have done both characters a lot of good.
Maybe a friendship between Tasha and Wesley could have been explored, maybe with some undercurrent that Tasha kinda uses that friendship to make up for her own terrible adolescence on Mad Max World.