What's the point of Aztec-ing on the hull?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by KamenRiderBlade, Jul 26, 2020.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Points of light were good enough for the ancients to name the planets and track their movements in precise detail. Points of light are good enough for astronomers detecting exoplanets today. You'll never convince me it's "not really seeing" something.
     
  2. Henoch

    Henoch Glowing Globe Premium Member

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    But it was bright sunshine over Nebraska at the time. I have a hard time seeing in the daytime a 747 flying at 35,000+ feet if it has no contrail to help point it out. I suspect the Enterprise was higher than that since the interceptor jet was climbing hard to get a good look.
     
  3. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You've just reiterated my point. An observer on the ground at night with their naked eye would be able to see "something" but could they identify it as a starship? I doubt it.
     
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  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Well, that's my point -- sorry, I should've been clearer. I mean that the ship doesn't need to be invisible to the eye in order to avoid being identified as a starship from the future. It does no harm if it's visible as a point of light in the sky, because nobody will be able to figure out what the point of light is. So whatever shield adjustments they made to throw off radar don't require deflecting visible light as well.
     
  5. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In that case we've both done a splendid job in talking past each other! :guffaw:
    Your point is well made.
     
  6. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That still sounds like a Prime Directive violation in the making. For instance, a primitive civilization could plausibly take religiously-motivated actions whenever an uncharted astronomical object is noticed, such as sacrificing people to their gods. If such action were taken upon the mere arrival of a starship to survey the planet, even without the natives knowing what the object is that has suddenly appeared in their night sky, then there would be blood on the Federation's hands. The arrival of the starship would have altered the course of their development. It would be better and more in keeping with the principle of non-interference to go completely invisibly.
     
  7. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    More reason to use a "Cloaking Device" when visiting Pre-Warp civilizations.
     
  8. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    a unknown satellite suddenly appears during the mid 1960's would quickly have pulled the attention of the military (east and west), and then they can't detect it on radar?

    but they do have telescope to follow up the naked eye.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
  9. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    From the teaser of "Assignment: Earth" [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/55.htm]:

    Captain's log. Using the lightspeed breakaway factor, the Enterprise has moved back through time to the twentieth century. We are now in extended orbit around Earth, using our ship's deflector shields to remain unobserved. Our mission, historical research. We are monitoring Earth communications to find out how our planet survived desperate problems in the year 1968.​

    Not nominally a cloaking device, but good enough for practical invisibility while orbiting the Earth in 1986. Presumably that would cover the visible spectrum as well, wouldn't it, at least for the vantage points of ground observers (in other words, it wouldn't have to cover it in all directions)?
     
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  10. BK613

    BK613 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think this is a key point. Mostly, one just needs to keep sunlight from reflecting off the hull and bounce it away from a planet. Surely, deflectors that can handle photon torpedo blasts and phaser strikes can deal with a little sunshine.
     
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  11. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And if deflectors could make the starship invisible to ground-based radar, then that makes the case for having the capability of deflecting visible light only that much stronger.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Space_Track

    Note that Project Space Track, operational in 1961, also used observations in visible light in addition to radar observations.
     
  12. Forbin

    Forbin Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I said out, dammit!
    I think we're meant to assume the hull was built the same, just painted gray. :)
     
  13. Forbin

    Forbin Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not necessarily - stealth aircraft are designed to not reflect radar waves (or at least minimize radar reflection), but they're clearly visible when you look at 'em.
     
  14. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Deflectors aren't material shields. Technobabble in TOS "Obsession" and in TNG "Deja Q" (sorry, I misremembered the exact details of the TNG reference) suggests that deflectors are related to gravitation and relativistic spacetime curvature. Cf. gravitational lensing, which functions at all wavelengths:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens

    On the other hand, in the case of the absorption and scattering properties of the Aztec plating on the refit Enterprise, you might have a point.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
  15. BK613

    BK613 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    About the sunlight: I was actually just thinking about putting the ship in a shadow.

    As for the makeup of a deflector, there is this from TAS, The Survivor:
    SPOCK: It is not outside the realm of probability. If he could rearrange his own atoms to become an examination table, one would have to assume he could become a deflector shield.
     
  16. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    :lol: Yeah, that was pushing it. YMMV.
     
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  17. publiusr

    publiusr Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe a component of one
     
  18. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, TAS fan that I am, I still had to head-canon it as to something like that. Deflector shield generator, maybe. The Vendorian's change of form effect was similar to a transporter sparkle, IIRC, so that suggests a broad range of capabilities. Topic drift, to be sure.... :shrug:
     
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  19. matthunter

    matthunter Admiral Admiral

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    Don't make me bust out the original Red Dwarf model on yo' ass.
     
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  20. publiusr

    publiusr Admiral Admiral

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    I see that and raise you one Cygnus...
     
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