Poll Galaxy's Child: in a tng marathon why I skipped this episode?

I mean I guess the intended allegory for the episode was somebody falling in love with their fantasy idea of a celebrity and then having to learn that said celebrity is a real person with their own personality and aspirations.

But from a modern point of of view Geordi does come off as a creeper (let alone the fact that Mrs. Brahms is married) and it doesn't really matter whether whether it would have Geordi, Riker or Lwaxana in that role. It's creepy.
Really all those episodes were sex crazy Lwaxana (because of course the alien lady has some biological thing that makes her sex crazy) runs after Picard don't really look any better...
(Though to be fair irrc that was mostly the Season 2 episode with Lwaxana and that one was a steaming pile of dreck and poorly aged cliches anyway)
Yeop manhunt is just as uncomfortable as this.

 

I don't see anything wrong with them. The Trek episodes were they really get the sex stuff wrong is like on TOS with Rand's possible rape by twin Kirk and spocks grin at the end or the idea the one lady would have to leave the service just because she married Scotty. Then in "Code of Honor(Does this episode never stop giving us cringy stuff?) you basically have black men getting horny and amazed by the sexy blond woman in Yar. Then Yar finding Luton kind of sexy which Troi tricks her into revealing. Kim being treated like a kid because he got a space STD on "Voyager" and maybe Neelix and Kes but I am still not sure how we should look at the age of Kes because a species that lives only 9 years means the usually rules are out.


Jason

 

I gotta read that massive review just to know what point you're making?

 

I think I've done a pretty good job of expressing my concerns throughout this thread, but sometimes other people are better at expressing themselves. Read it or don't.

 

Generally speaking to me this is one of those situations were their is not really a right or wrong answer and it sort of comes down to individual personality. While I don't mind how Geordi behaved because even though he made mistakes he never really crossed any lines it's not like if he took a different tact it would be bad either and maybe he could have found a better way to tell her early on or better yet remember that when you shutdown your program it isn't the same as erasing it. Basically she walked in and the program was still set at the moment he left it all those years ago. Anyone could have literally walked into that program.


Jason

 

Things were creepy before that. As I said, the entire pretext of the dinner scene is troubling because Geordi's taking advantage of what he believes he knows about Leah.

What you're saying is akin to 'It wasn't a problem that he was doing something illegal; it was only a problem that he got caught doing something illegal.'

Though I'll grant that it's far worse when Leah calls him out on his conduct and he responds by blaming it all on her behavior.

 

Other than the food I am just not seeing what personal knowledge he knows about her, he is exploiting. If he was trying to impress someone else he would no doubt try and woo them much in the same way. Creating a cozy setting with relaxing music. It's not like he is going, I know she loves this and this and the music. I am going to play will be her favorite song. He actually tried the same thing with Julie Warner's character when he asked her out on a date on the holodeck except they went to the holodeck instead of his quarters. Which I think in the 24th century might even be more forward.

IMO our knowledge of the character is very important and we should sort of know that no matter what he is going to basically behave like a perfect gentlemen on this date. He is not going to try lines like "Hey baby, lets go to my room and look at my Data Rod" or anything like that. As for calling her out he was reacting to her taking the holodeck simulation out of context and also still kind of angry I suspect from how she was insulting him from the moment she beamed aboard. I don't think it was anger over being shot down on the date. To me her anger is justified but it's just one of those situations where you sort of see both perspectives.


Jason

 

What supposed knowledge does Gerodi use during the dinner scene? He knows that Leah is possessive of her designs and that she used to wear her hair up...is it those things or something else?

 

To me this a very important as to why it doesn't feel like a violation of privacy. Everything he knows is basically public knowledge that anyone who every looked her up would know. The hologram is said to be 90% accurate but to be honest I doubt a computer could ever truly duplicate a real person so accurately. Humans are to complex so I am guessing it's using criteria such as combined public knowledge to come up with that number. Maybe it's copied any body or facial reactions from anything ever caught on film for the lack of a better word. Loaded it up on facts and info gathered up in public interviews. One possible violation is if is using info from other people but I am guessing you would have rules against that. Like if she had a ex-boyfriend who in the press once talked about how she use to have a drinking problem but this was never confirmed by her then I am guessing the computer would have privacy settings that would not allow the duplicate to adapt that info into the program.


Jason

 

Indeed, the computer even specifically says that personal logs are restricted. "Leah" is based on her Starfleet personality profile and several talks that she did.

 

The problem isn't that La Forge knows that Brahms likes fungili. The problem is how he goes about it. He invites her to dinner, says he makes an excellent fungili, and Brahms says, "I love fungili," and La Forge's response is to pretend to be surprised and say, "Really?" As if it's a total coincidence that they both have the same favorite food, and wow, aren't we compatible right now? If he'd said, "I know, I read it in your profile, and I thought maybe it would break the ice if we shared a meal" or whatever, that would've been fine. But no, he acts all surprised, thus lying to her and trying to make him sound more compatible with her thanks to information he got from his holographic blow-up doll.

The other problem is that La Forge's response to Brahms's perfectly legitimate complaint about the holographic blow-up doll she finds is to whine about how mean she was to him when he was just trying to be friendly, which is nonsense. Throughout the trip, he's been creepily flirting with her and she has no way of knowing how far things went on the holodeck with holo-Brahms, especially given the creepy flirting. If anything, her response was restrained, and the only response La Forge should have given was, "I'm sorry, it was a crisis, I needed a consultation with the ship designer, and things got a little carried away, I should've told you" while hanging his head in shame. Instead, he self-righteously declares that he was just being nice to her and she's a big meanie.

 

I don't know. fungili is still fungili. Not exactly something that is going make some just fall for you. Also if you feel like I do and he was going to tell her all of these things at dinner it doesn't seem so bad. I think it makes perfect sense to try and find the best time to tell someone a secret. It's not about trying to trick someone but finding the most comfortable way to tell someone something you need to say. I mean when people go on dates they don't open up about every secret in their life right at first. Nobody is that honest at first with someone who is a stranger. It's about finding that moment to tell them something and I can see why you don't just blurt out to this person you like about this holodeck adventure right at first out of fear of her not understanding the context since she doesn't really know you. Maybe if they hadn't started off fighting about engine stuff he would have even be more relaxed mentioning it earlier but they started off in conflict.
As for the final scene he did try to explain to her but she shut him down before he could explain and yes he lost his cool but when someone is yelling at you who exactly going to not going loose their temper. The normal response to anger is rarely to just sit back and take it. It's to the need to defend yourself especially if you feel like the person is being unfair. Also she was kind of mean. I mean not in that moment. Her anger is understandable at that moment but when the first thing you do when coming aboard is to start insulting the chief engineer she didn't exactly come aboard behaving in the best way. I mean who really does that. Insult a stranger you have never even meet literally seconds after meeting them because you think they screwed up your engines without even trying to figure out what he and his engineering team have been doing to them what they did for the last 4 years.

Plus I just like how he learns a lesson in this episode. His scene with Guinan is one of my favorites in TNG about learning to see people for who they are and not for who you want or expect them to be. Without the confusion you don't get any conflict or drama and then the episode is just dull tech stuff about helping save the space baby.

Jason

 

I think part of this is just people like to pick apart the main characters. Riker an ableist, Worf a terrible dad, Deanna useless, the traveler a creep. None of these are really as extreme in the show as it seems in discussion imo

 

I think it primarily was a misunderstanding or two. Leah did misunderstand what the hologram had been about (thinking he used the program to enact a romance rather than solve an engineering program), Geordi was dishonest about both his past experience (not revealing the program and/or that he had learn about her, though what he learned turned out to be pretty inaccurate) and present intentions (wanting to become romantic based on that dishonesty) and yet hadn't used her as she thought and accused he did so he did get angry.

The computer was the one that introduced particular closeness or romantic aspect in the original holoporgram, which is weird and not really believable and yet that, from the previous episode, was what did happen. When Leah, as Geordi suggested, watch the program before and/or learned there weren't more programs after she thinks she should apologize, Geordi does too for his lack of honesty.

Developing a crush on an image or wikipedia page/CV or a dramatization based on someone's life, kissing that holo-dramatization even though it's based on someone real may be creepy, thinking it makes him a virtual rapist seems at best overblown.

The episode does judge that LaForge's past behavior wasn't awful, it also ends with saying LaForge's more recent behavior wasn't totally fine (also wasn't terrible), both characters say they made mistakes and that those of the other weren't so bad.

 

I think it's open to interpretation how much Geordi had an undue amount of information. The information definitely wasn't private info so it could be compared to, if not a wikipedia page, a CV and papers she wrote but OTOH the show does portray holodecks and holograms as being a pretty new development.

But yeah he should have said something. From both the line itself and the way it is delivered Geordi just saying the adjustment was "not exclusively" his idea rather than admitting holo-her contributed to it comes off as direct dishonesty, sneakiness that he shouldn't have done, later the dinner scene does seem trying too hard and, with the dishonesty, yes kind of creepy. The main criticism seems to be that he isn't apologetic enough later on.

 

I'm not sure whether or not the information is public is necessarily relevant to whether it's "undue". If you have a low-security Facebook profile I can look it up and learn all sorts of things about you that are presumably truthful. But to use that information to try to create a romantic scenario without telling you that I browsed your Facebook profile first is where I think things get pretty murky, especially if I start creating situations that wouldn't have occurred organically.

Me: (hates sports, but sees on your Facebook profile that you love The Yankees)
Also Me: I don't even live in New York, but how about I visit you and we, I dunno, see a Yankees game.
You: I thought you hated sports?
Me: ...oh no, I love watching a good game of sportsball...

Better Me: Hey, I'd really like to visit you because I like you and think maybe we could build something together. I'm really not into sports, but I know you love The Yankees. How about we take in a game and you can share your love of it with me?

And wow, I actually am planning to visit a friend in Arizona later this year and totally did say, despite my really not caring much about sports, that I'd be happy to go to a sporting event with him. Because for me it would be about the company first, and experiencing his passion for the game.

 

I agree. Plus you have implied intent and unintentional subtext. Combine that with dramatic and comedic license were characters sometimes do things that work better in fiction than maybe it would in real life you end up seeing all these different perspectives were people will watch the same show or movie and see it completely different from others.

Jason

 

Yeah, the Baku were a real stretch.

I understand what people are saying here (although I wish the term 'gaslighting"' could be retired for awhile). But what people do in the holodeck should be private and nobody else's business but the user's. If society has an issue with people recreating real people in the holodeck (and having sex with them, which would happen constantly), the computer should just make it impossible to use real likenesses. But since it seems to be okay in the Federation to recreate anyone you want in the holodeck, privacy rules should apply. If Geordi wants to bork Leah Brahms in Holodeck 3, that's his deal. Maybe he should have password protected it so it wouldn't be discovered by the real Brahms, though. Kind of a dumb move on his part.

All in all, the writers really didn't think the implications of this technology through.

 

I kind of agree but I do see a issue in that you got your work programs and then I suppose your private programs. If she thought he was having sex with a hologram with her in a work program that in theory anyone on the ship could come access and watch themselves that would also be issue. It's one thing to masturbate but to record your masturbation including the thing your masturbation and letting the entire public just watch it would be a major privacy issue. The other issue is being able to see people naked without their consent but I feel like the holodecks have safeguards that don't you see someone as they really look while nude. You get the general body shape for these programs but anyone real you see naked on a holodeck is basically futuristic photoshoping on fake bodies. It makes sense to me Starfleet would have these kind of privacy protocols in place.


Jason

 

I rewatched it and yes, Geordi does come across as a bit creepy. Asking her to get a bite to eat later under the impression it's going to be professional, then having it in his quarters with lights dimmed, romantic music playing and all that? And then mentioning all this personal stuff which strikes even Leah as odd. How he came across this info was innocent, but how he used it seemed questionable at best. But it plays into the part about Geordi learning to accept people, Leah in particular, as they are, not as he wants them to be.
If you don't have Geordi doing all that stuff, then the learning moment from Guinan and the episode is lost or too subtle.
It's a bit of a letdown, but it makes the original episode "Booby Trap" that much more sensible. I get tired of the wish fulfillment fantasy in SF that has a male character fall for what's essentially an object, but it turns out the object has feelings for him too. It feels like it's betraying the integrity of the story just so the writer can indulge in some personal fantasy. Now, I'm not to say that those particular stories don't have integrity or aren't good. Just that an abundance of them can give the overall feeling of cliche and over indulgence.
It was a little too perfect that Geordi found love in the holodeck, so finding out that the real Leah isn't anything like that made the original episode even more bittersweet, and re-examines the holo-version of her.

It's like that episode of the Twilight Zone with the prisoner stranded on a planet with a female robot, just split into two episodes of Star Trek.