Was Riker insubordinate during "Chain of Command"?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by AdamNY, Sep 20, 2019.

  1. AdamNY

    AdamNY Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    As much as I love Riker, it does seem this episode proves he's unfit to be in the military cause he can't seem to handle working for new people and adapting to change.
     
    Nyotarules and Gabriel like this.
  2. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    That is why Riker doesn't have the maturity to be captain. It's not the first time he acted like that. However, when he's in his comfort zone, he seems to be a competent first officer.
     
    Gabriel and Qonundrum like this.
  3. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    I agree that Riker can be a immature man, like he was against Shelby, Lavelle and Jellico
     
    Gabriel and Nyotarules like this.
  4. unimatrix7

    unimatrix7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2001
    Location:
    Australia
    I think more egregious was his petulant whining at Picard when he was seeing Nella Darren.

    The temerity of him moaning to Picard that he’s “uncomfortable” with her doing her job. They were in an appropriate relationship, unlike his slimeball flirting with every female ensign Thst caught his eye...and Data’s day old daughter. He’s just yuck.
     
  5. HopefulRomantic

    HopefulRomantic Mom's little girl Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2004
    Location:
    petting my cats
    Moved to a more appropriate forum.
     
    NewHeavensNewEarth likes this.
  6. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2019
    Location:
    SoCal
    Lal kissed him, though
     
    Arpy likes this.
  7. KennyB

    KennyB I have spoken............ Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2001
    Location:
    Tokyo Japan
    Has the OP already bit the dust? That was fast.
     
    somebuddyX likes this.
  8. Mutai Sho-Rin

    Mutai Sho-Rin Crusty Old Bastard Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Location:
    Orange, CA USA
    Yep.
     
    SolarisOne, Mojochi and KennyB like this.
  9. Forbin

    Forbin Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Location:
    I said out, dammit!
    Riker was a whiny little bitch in that episode. Very unprofessional.
     
  10. gakelly

    gakelly Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    Riker is petty in a lot of episodes.
    His entitlement was so obvious in Chain of Command. He couldn't handle the fact that he wasn't given command of the Enterprise.
     
    unimatrix7 and Gabriel like this.
  11. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2014
    Location:
    Suomi Finland
    Riker did have a growth spurt sometime before this episode and his beard appeared in season 2 but maybe he reached puberty in these episodes? He was like an angry teen. Perhaps even a little bit out of character?
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  12. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    To be fair, according to my Navy friends, irritated and disliking your captain is a national sport. The Enterprise's big happy family doesn't have to be an atmosphere that is replicated as long as people do their job.
     
    Gabriel likes this.
  13. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2018
    Location:
    USA
    I must say it was not his finest hours.
     
    Arpy likes this.
  14. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Location:
    Tenacity
    On the ship prior to the Enterprise, where Riker was also first officer, he once refused to allow his captain to beam down.

    Refused?

    Not counseled against, not discussed the matter. Riker dictated the actions of his commanding officer. It's not clear if Captain DeSoto ignored Riker's refusal and beamed down as he originally intended.

    Riker doesn't understand the chain of command, or that even as a full commander he is still subordinated to officers superior in rank and position. After hearing Captain Jellico instructions and voicing his alternatives to them, Riker should have carried out Jellico's commands to the best of his abilities..
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
    SolarisOne and Gabriel like this.
  15. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Location:
    Enterprise bowling alley
    This is an ancient argument, but I always stand by my assessment:

    Riker was 100% in the wrong in "Chain of Command." Whether or not Jellico was a dick is completely irrelevant. Jellico is the frigging CO of the ship. Riker's job as the XO is to get stuff done for him and follow orders. Period. So yes, by definition, Riker was absolutely insubordinate. If he presented alternate options or expressed concerns and Jellico dismissed them, that's the end of it. "Get it done," indeed!

    And Riker is my favorite TNG character.
     
    The Wormhole, SolarisOne and Gabriel like this.
  16. Mysterion

    Mysterion Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Location:
    Suburban Mos Eisley
    But Riker wasn't even doing his job in any sense of it. He didn't do what Jellico ordered him to do, he didn't support Jellico's orders to the rest of the crew or ensure they were implemented, and he also actively participated in/encouraged his junior officers to insubordinate behavior. The only "regular" Enterprise officer who acts like a professional in this episode is Data.
     
    SolarisOne and Gabriel like this.
  17. Herbert

    Herbert Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2017
    Location:
    Herbert
    And yet, the few times we do see him as captain, he does just fine.
     
    Ragitsu and Arpy like this.
  18. Herbert

    Herbert Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2017
    Location:
    Herbert
    This is explained on screen several times in the first season or two. A primary responsibility of Riker as first officer is to keep his captain safe. Why is this even an argument? Yes, they toned that down in later seasons but it was there in the beginning.
     
    Nakita Akita likes this.
  19. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    Sure, he does fine, but also exhibits some immaturity. In BoBW, Guinan has to come counsel him. In Gambit, Picard "dies," so Riker begins his investigation. The very first place they go, Riker beams down with the away team and is captured.
     
    SolarisOne and Gabriel like this.
  20. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Because he can do what he want
     
    SolarisOne and Gabriel like this.
  21. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2014
    Location:
    Suomi Finland
    I think there were things that Riker could have done better but that goes for Jellico too.

    Jellico wanted too much from the crew too fast. Perhaps Riker was right when he snapped him back a bit.
    If they had more time to get to know each other in a normal situation, not in a crisis, they might have gotten along just fine.
     
  22. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    Jellico seems to be under the impression that this is a permanent change of command. That being the case, a new commander, or a new manager, or even a new teacher needs to set a tone very quickly, and "come out swinging."

    The episode doesn't make a lot of sense, though. Even though they gave reasons why it had to be Picard, Crusher, and Word on the mission, it should really be a specialized team that trains for these kinds of missions all the time, not a starship captain or a chief medical officer.

    If Jellico assumed his new command was permanent, it would mean Starfleet had very low expectations of Picard's mission succeeding, and were going to sacrifice him.
     
    Forbin likes this.