Supergirl - Season Four

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Kai "the spy", Jul 17, 2018.

  1. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Against heroes or villains, Superman should never lose--especially in a fair fight. Physically, only Darkseid could be a match for him. Struggling is fine, losing is not. You don't beat Superman by fighting him. You hurt him through people he cares about, which is pretty much everyone.

    Superman can take a beating and can be down, but never out. No better example of this than Apokolips Now on the 1996 cartoon. He struggled, but even at his worst, he was ready to fight Darkseid to the death. It wasn't until Darkseid killed Dan Turpin that Superman lost--even when the war was won.

    I kind of like this analogy, but Superman is more like Hogan, pre nWo of course. He is the one who fights for truth, justice and the American way. He stands for all that is good and right. He is the hero of heroes. I'm not saying no one should get in offense. I'm not saying no one can hurt him. But beat him? No. Especially someone clearly inferior like Supergirl, who shouldn't be as powerful as him, other than to satisfy some writers with chips on their shoulders.
     
  2. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's where I'm talking about the problem as I don't believe Kara Zor-El should be stuck being the Robin. I've always felt that she should be advancing to becoming the Power Girl (or Superwoman) rather than stuck at being "Superman but half as awesome." That was the premise in the Silver Age because she was meant to be his Mary Marvel. In today's society and certainly on the show, Supergirl is training and fighting and leveling up. Basically, moving from being Supergirl the dorky teen to being Supergirl the Powerhouse like Wonder Woman. The most powerful superheroine in the world and someone who can beat Superman if circumstances go her way.

    As for Superman, I tend to prefer Animated Series Superman to Silver Age Science God. A guy who is really powerful but under the right circumstances can be punched out by Zod, Doomsday, Darkseid, Lobo, Kalibak, or sufficiently strong Kryptonian Battlesuit Luthor. It justifies the existence of the Justice League that there are threats you need backup for Superman against. Now Superman will win the vast majority of these fights but not so much that Zod can't beat him in the first act only for Superman to rally back.

    Obviously, this is just a matter of taste.

    So yeah, if Superman is invincible against anyone save Darkseid (who is the Space Devil and a league of his own) then obviously Supergirl beating him is a bad thing. However, if Supergirl is meant to be not Robin but evolved into Super Family Nightwing then I think that's okay. Because while Batman would probably win usually against Nightwing, I can see Nightwing beating Bruce--especially in his own comic/show.
     
  3. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I think this incarnation of Supergirl is more Batwoman than Nightwing, since she's been her own independent hero from the start, with no history as her cousin's apprentice or partner. She did need him to save her exactly once, in episode 3, but then she turned around and defeated the one villain he never caught.

    And as I've pointed out multiple times before, it's logical that she could outfight Superman regardless of their absolute strength levels, because she's had military-grade combat training from Alex Danvers, a woman who routinely outfights men bigger and stronger than herself, whereas Superman is a self-taught brawler. Technique is more important than raw muscle.
     
  4. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    At no point is Kara Zor El the equal to Robin. She's not a sidekick, never was. He was a mentor to her, but she's on her own, in another city. A student doesn't have to defeat a teacher to be ready. A police officer or a soldier does not have to defeat their instructors in combat to be cops and soldiers on their own.

    There's nothing wrong with Superman being more powerful when that's what he's supposed to be. That doesn't take away from Kara and the great work she does. Supergirl SHOULD be a powerhouse like Wonder Woman. But she shouldn't need to fight Wonder Woman to do so.

    It showed major insecurity on the part of the writers for them to not only have Kara win that fight, but to have Superman constantly spewing how Kara was better than him--in multiple appearances.

    That's not how Zod would beat Superman. Look at Superman II for example. Superman took on 3 Kryptonians and gave as good as he got, but even so, he lost the first battle--not because he was overpowered, but because circumstances put too many people in danger. He had to flee not because he was physically beaten, but because he needed to take the fight to a different location. Yeah, there are villains who can hurt him, but in the end, he wins--he's Superman.

    I think that actually makes Nightwing look weaker--for the same thing. One doesn't need to be the most powerful to be a hero of equal stature. Batman is more experienced and better trained--he SHOULD be able to beat Nightwing. But heart, determination and sacrifice are what makes a hero.

    Think Dan Turpin in Apokolips Now. Was he any less a hero than Superman in that story? In some ways, he was even more of a hero because he did that with no powers.

    Same with Steve Trevor in Wonder Woman--what a difference? The writers of that movie were secure enough in Wonder Woman that they didn't need to make Trevor look weak. He was a hero in his own right, and so was Wonder Woman.

    Let's not overstate a few months of lessons with Alex. And let's also not forget that this version of Superman went to Warworld and if that story followed through, he would have beaten Mongul, who could destroy Alex Danvers. Superman is more than a self taught brawler. This is a Superman that has known Batman in his universe. Chances are Wonder Woman is part of that universe as well. He would have trained with both of them, and both of them were far superior.

    Also, unless you are completely untrained, size matters. Maybe in TV, Alex Danvers could hold her own, but you stick Ronda Rousey against a trained fighter that outweighs her by 50 pounds, she will get crushed. A trained big person will always beat a trained smaller person. That's why weight divisions exist in the first place.
     
  5. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    To give a short version, in real life combat is not going to go 10-0 even if you're better than someone at fighting. Theoretically, if someone is anywhere near the ability of someone else they're going to win one out of those. If Nightwing isn't completely outclassed by Batman in comabt then he'd win one and I feel the same regarding Supergirl who is meant to be as strong as Superman and also a hero.

    But that's just me.
     
  6. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Yes, of course. But as I said, it's logical in this universe that the DEO-trained, Alex Danvers-trained Supergirl is a more skilled hand-to-hand combatant than Superman. Alex trained her in a room that used kryptonite radiation to take away her powers, so she had to learn to win by skill rather than strength, and she would've learned Alex's female-oriented techniques that would be specifically designed for defeating larger, stronger opponents. Those are advantages that Earth-38's Superman would never have had, because he's been depicted as a career loner who mistrusted the military, and he's probably relied mostly on his strength alone rather than learning sophisticated techniques for unarmed combat.

    So at least on Earth-38, irrespective of any other version of the characters, it stands to reason that Supergirl is the objectively better fighter, the one who'd be expected to win the majority of the time. Superman might well be able to beat her at arm-wrestling, tug-of-war, or something that's a pure contest of strength, but in a fight where training and technique matter, Supergirl has an enormous edge. So Superman would be the one who'd need a lucky break in order to win the occasional match.

    Of course, in any fictional universe, it's naive to argue that the stronger fighter would be expected to win. Goliath was stronger than David. Khan was stronger than Kirk. The Empire was stronger than the Ewoks. In fiction, it's pretty much routine for the stronger villain to be defeated by the weaker hero because the hero has cleverness, determination, or the forces of justice/destiny on their side. In fiction, you should always bet on the person you'd be wiser to bet against in real life.
     
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  7. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I believe that's definitely an advantage though I wouldn't necessarily believe Superman is completely without training as well (or at least has about 20 years of experience on Supergirl by the show's in-universe timeline) but I'm supportive of Supergirl having subdued Kal-El in that battle.

    It's even more impressive because it's stated like in Man of Steel that Kal killed Zod and was presumably fighting lethally versus Supergirl's attempts to not so.
     
  8. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Lex is a big character to have just in one show. Hopefully they use him in the other ArrowVerse shows.
     
  9. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One thing that Supergirl does is that it poses some interesting answers to the questions of how to deal with properties that you can't use the best of. Basically, Arrow as more or less used in replacement of Batman and Barry Allen did a lot of Superman's themes before Supergirl took over.

    It'll be interesting how they handle Batwoman and incorporate elements from the Bat mythos.

    Lex Luthor shows having the greatest enemy of your villain show up is good but should be used sparringly. Supergirl also benefited from developing some of the less developed parts of the Mythos like Argo, Reign/The Worldkillers, and so on.

    Some of the worst episodes were just using Metallo, Reactron, Mxy, and others thrown in.
     
  10. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Sure, Superman has the advantage of experience, which can help too. But in terms of actual fight training -- not just field experience, but formal training in fighting techniques -- where would he get it? Again, Earth-38's Superman is a loner who mistrusts the military. He had no access to a kryptonite room to dampen his powers so he could train on an equal footing with a human, and as far as we know, he never had an ally or partner of equal strength who could've trained him at his own level (unless J'onn did it at some point, though I don't get the sense they were that close). He could've studied martial arts or pugilism in theory, but who could he have sparred with to turn it into practical muscle memory?

    Hmm... maybe Kelex in the Fortress? Although I don't think he was shown to be all that physically tough. Then again, given that we've seen the Cosmic Anvil and the Baby Sun-Eater in the Fortress lately, maybe there's a room full of Superman robots they haven't told us about.

    Also, Superman had a Legion ring in the Fortress back in season 1, although that seems to have been forgotten now. So maybe he trained with the Legionnaires when he was Superboy?


    I hated that line. Not only from a moral standpoint, but from a continuity standpoint, because Supergirl adamantly said "Superman doesn't kill" in a couple of first-season episodes. (Not to mention that her own no-kill policy seems to be suspended for CGI monsters like the Parasite and White Martians.)
     
  11. matthunter

    matthunter Admiral Admiral

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    Has same powers? Check.

    Has combat training? Check.

    Small difference in muscle mass where majority of strength is clearly psionic or otherwise reliant on non-muscle power? Granted.

    Not seeing where the "clearly" comes in unless you think lack of testes is an issue? And in a fight, let me tell you it's actually an advantage.
     
  12. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    To be fair, in MAN OF STEEL by John Byrne, killing General Zod, Faora, and Nod was what led to Superman vowing never to kill again. It was what many of us expected from killing General Zod in the Man of Steel movie.

    I also think Supergirl's "No Kill" rule is just not working in the show because she claims that the deaths of Season 3's finale are because she let Reign be killed. SO, what's her solution?

    Let her be dragged to hell.

    Only a massive hypocrite would see that as different.
     
  13. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Slight correction: That was in John Byrne's regular Superman run for which the separate 6-issue The Man of Steel miniseries was only the origin story for. Specifically it was Superman Vol. 2 #22 from October 1988, nearly two years after The Man of Steel, which ran biweekly from October to December 1986.

    Anyway, I'm not talking about any other continuity except Supergirl. What was done in a different version has no bearing on the continuity of this version. And in this version, in season 1, Supergirl repeatedly and unambiguously stated that "Superman doesn't kill." That was an important plot point more than once, an established fact about the Earth-38 version of Superman. So when that episode tossed in a casual reference to Superman killing Zod, sure, it was an in-joke nod at the Snyder movie, but it was one that simply did not fit the established continuity of this show. It was a massive discrepancy treated as a cavalier throwaway, and that was bad writing.


    Yes, that's my point. There are several occasions where the writers have dropped the ball on the emphatic no-kill policy established in season 1, and they haven't treated it like it was a big deal. That's a storytelling mistake. If you're going to have your lead character break a previously established firm principle, then it should be an important, acknowledged change and should be talked about and followed up on by the characters, not just done without comment as if it doesn't matter.
     
  14. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Fair enough and conceded.

    I wish they'd go with the idea Superman will kill but only in the most drastic of circumstances or, yes, reveal that Superman NEVER KILLS and Kara realizes she can under the right circumstances. Or maybe she can't and is troubled by the fact John and Alex can.

    Be consistent is all I'm asking.

    BTW, my opinion on this season as a whole?

    My only problem with the Children of Liberty storyline is I want to see Nazis punched and so many episodes end with Nazis not being punched. If they wanted Supergirl to fight someone who could fight her toe-to-toe then have Agent Liberty get superpowers instead.

    I like the episodes where they have various evil plots going on.
     
  15. E-DUB

    E-DUB Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, someone has to ask it. Is Superman only as stronger than Supergirl as the average man would be stronger than the average woman or is there some multiplication factor operating? Because if the former, it really doesn't mean much at that level.
     
  16. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I don't get why people keep assuming it's a question of strength. Alex constantly outfights men who are bigger and stronger than she is, because she's a better fighter. Skill matters more than strength.
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Right at the beginning, Batman put a bomb in Dick's skull.

    25 years later, the bomb is probably a corroded dud, maybe.

    Although, we don't know when Bats stopped upgrading and replacing the Bomb in his faithful wards face, because its a little paranoid to mine an 11 year old, most adults can kick to death in less than a minute, so depending on how batshit Bruce is, the lump of TNT at the base of Nighting's Skull might have only been there for weeks.
     
  18. The Realist

    The Realist Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Jesus. Again/still/really?

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  19. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Listen, if Spiderman fights the Juggernaut in Spiderman's comic then I expect Spiderman to win.
     
  20. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Moddin' Admiral

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    I’m honestly confused at how the writers are sexist or racist, they seem to be the exact opposite.