Why are the ranks so top heavy?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by The Wormhole, Feb 16, 2019.

  1. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Commodore Commodore

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    Maybe they could have, but they clearly felt it wasn’t important enough and decided to just focus on the seven main characters they had at their disposal, as well as the recurring characters they already had with Guinan, O’Brien, introducing Keiko just a few episodes after Wesley’s departure. I honestly don’t feel I missed anything with not having a main character at the driver’s seat, just as I don’t feel I’ve missed anything not having a chief of security in TOS.

    Right now DISCOVERY has five mainstay characters with Pike serving as the captain of the season. Maybe when Pike returns to the Enterprise and Saru becomes captain one of the co-stars will get a promotion, or at least elevate to guest star like O’Brien did in the second season, and he didn’t even get a name until that happened.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...I guess the big problem here is that a ship that is constantly being run against specs and falling apart from the abuse should have the engineering personnel up and front. Never mind the CEO, where are the engineers in general? Why are they using Reno for getting stuff done?

    There's the in-universe rationale for Culber being his own thing, though. If the CMO is the Commander guy glimpsed in "Magic", why isn't he treating Stamets who is the most important patient aboard? Why, because Lorca very specifically wants Stamets to be treated by his lover, so that he can play the conflict of interest to his advantage. Similarly, he's segmenting everything else, so that the officers under his command aren't really in speaking terms with each other.

    However, we don't have to assume Culber was a major medical authority overall. The CMO may have been the one who performed those careful and competent tests on Tyler after his rescue from the Klingon ship, say; Culber is the one later discussing this with Tyler merely because he's the one at Sickbay 24/7, because Stamets.

    Well, it would be convenient for the Commander Guy to disappear at some point. I mean, Mudd killed him often enough. His profession is a fairly dangerous one; perhaps Pollard really is the highest-ranking survivor out of the original team.

    Indeed. But that one's easy - the Discovery underling who thought Pike would be beaming over with an engineer and a science fellah didn't know his or her Morse code. Nhan never was an engineer in dialogue!

    Except nobody, but nobody, knows the Discovery is fast. She's a secret asset, in "Choose Your Pain" explicitly kept from fighting the war because Starfleet thinks the danger of exposure is too great.

    During the war, the ship doesn't have a reputation. She has a cloak of invisibility instead. Nobody comes or goes, lest there be exposure. Which suits Lorca just fine. (The ship having cadets aboard is really odd in the context. But perhaps turning down those would have been suspicious activity for Lorca?)

    After the war... Well, the spore drive is deactivated, so the ship never does anything past warp 5. And Starfleet still keeps the spore drive secret, it seems, so that Pike is out like a snowman when our heroes start matter-of-factly discussing tardigrades and mycelial networks and the ability to do any better than the Enterprise speedwise. I can't see anybody volunteering to serve aboard this silenced-to-death ship, really - and indeed we never really see anybody new. If anything, we see old characters oddly disappear, such as the one transporter officer who knows Captain Philippa Georgiou, Ret. is in fact Mother of the Fatherland, Overlord of Vulcan, Dominus of Qo'nos and Regina Andor.

    Now, a few comments - sorry that the quoting screws up the numbering.

    Plus he's quite likely to have seniority in that rank. I mean, which of the other Commanders is played by an older actor? Also, Saru is an overachiever who may have rapidly risen in rank to the level we see, but lacks the ambition or guts to compete against others for the narrowing range of positions open to the high ranks, further speaking for his seniority to most folks; Burnham possibly only trumps him on the Shenzhou because of her similar overdrive from her Vulcan upbringing (and possible good connections).
    Her seniority in rank may have been zeroed, too, with her demotion and restoration. Although one'd think not. So she should outrank Saru, and only stays out of the XO spot because she's sidelined at Sciences.

    The engineering bit may well be a communications glitch, but she certainly ranks high. Then again, Kirk's Security Chiefs never did chain-of-command stints, not even the ones with Commander braid.

    All good and well. And any of these (other than #4) could have the rank of LCdr, rather than full Commander, if that makes us feel better. Also, many appear after Pike takes over; his defunct ship might be bleeding extra officers in all roles and positions, and the current crew of the Discovery might be more like 200 people now. After all, the Red Mystery is a big secret, as apparently is the Spore Drive: keeping the people who interact with these secret confined to one starship, commanded by the authorized holder of at least one of the secrets, makes sense.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  3. cultcross

    cultcross Postponed for the snooker Moderator

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    How many regular characters does a weekly show need? TNG already had 7 regulars minimum, plus Yar and Wesley at one point, and they already struggled to service that many meaningfully - Yar, Crusher, Troi (hmmm... theme there?) and Laforge were consistently underutilised and usually only showed up when inserted into a story because it was their turn (for example, why is medical doctor Crusher leading a shielding technology conference in Suspicions? Because the writers needed a Crusher episode. The story was written for Geordi.)
    Adding one more regular to fit into stories after Wheaton's departure would not have helped the story quality one bit.
    To overlay Discovery's approach onto TNG, Picard, Riker, Data, and Worf are the actual main cast, and the others are recurring characters as and when the story needs a doctor, engineer, etc.

    Well it seems there is, and you can see why really - the helm's job isn't often very vital to the story, they mostly just say "yes sir" and "showing all stop sir". Most of the story happens when stationary or moving at a constant speed, most episodes. Most exposition comes from Ops and tactical (TNG era) or science and communications (TOS/DSC era) and there is little meaningful input helm can make when Trek does its 'big decision' scenes. You really have to tear the character away from the position to create meaningful stuff for then to do (eg Wesley, Paris) and at that point, why make them helmsman at all?
     
  4. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, alot of the Lieutenants and Commanders from my list (credit goes to MA, although I went further than just the personnel list) were mentioned over the PA, so they could've been junior grades or Lt. Commanders respectively. Still, the Chief Engineer might be a Lt. Cdr, and maybe even the CMO if Gormagander guy was just some xenobiologist outside of the traditional medical department, perhaps to investigate the tardigrade and any other crazy mycelial creatures they run across (if never seen).

    With the old transporter chief and Richter's disappearance, I think there may have been a small crew rotation after S1. Starfleet still has a vested interest in keeping the ship and its secrets under wraps, so it's not constantly rotating like the other show ships (sans Voyager, of course, and Enterprise to a degree). But, you know, PTSD and cabin fever and stuff means some of these guys are probably itching to get out or get back home or just get away.

    Maybe the Captain on Vulcan was expected to give a massive reevaluation and rotate out most of the crew. No spore drive means an entire department (including Airiam, Stamets, and Tilly) is nixed and all would have to be reassigned or let go. But Pike shanghai'd everyone to the tune of Lenny Kravitz and now they're stuck on another season-long mystery adventure. At this rate, someone's going to go postal in Season 3. The ship needs a counselor.
     
  5. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, Stamets was supposed to leave when they reached Vulcan, according to the premiere. Presumably Tilly can continue her command training on board Disco even without the spore drive. That just leaves Ariam who would either take on other duties on board Disco or be reassigned to another ship.
     
  6. Jedi_Master

    Jedi_Master Admiral Admiral

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    Ranks in Starfleet are like "Whose Line is it anyway?" - it's all made up and the points don't matter.
     
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  7. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    For the same reason the movie Enterprise had so many officers of Captain rank.

    Kor
     
  8. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Commodore Commodore

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    One of the most absurd moments of rank I can recall was during an episode where Harry Kim tells a full lieutenant on what to do in an emergency situation.
     
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  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not only that but Kim, at the time, was fresh from the Academy.
     
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  10. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Commodore Commodore

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    I have to assume a goof like that was more of a production error, as ranking pips every now and then get that goof. Tuvok is only supposed to be a full lieutenant at the start of VOYAGER, yet he had Lt. Commander pips for a dozen episodes until that error was finally noticed and fixed.

    Sometimes assigned positions are determined for story reasons. Bashir is assigned as CMO on DS9, but he was a junior grade lieutenant fresh out of the Academy. The story reason was that the writers wanted a young wide eyed Federation idealist who's views would be challenged throughout the show, which wouldn't have been believable with Dax, O'Brien, and Sisko.
     
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  11. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...And of course this idea never really featured in the writing for Bashir in the end. But its antithesis was nicely introduced, making Bashir by far the most cynical of the lot, with a dark secret, a dim view of UFP idealism, and a general I'm-two-steps-ahead-of-you-all attitude to the adventures. Which worked fine with the low rank and age FWIW.

    Then again, Kim is the boss, in the organization chart - it's his duty to do that. And not his fault that Janeway kept him at his Starfleet-appointed rank but then gave him a Maquis underling who got Lieutenant bars right off the bat.

    I really wonder why Ayala got the two bars if he wasn't intended to become the replacement Chief Ops Officer and Kim's boss. Was he, too, a veteran of Starfleet, or of some other military organization of good repute he could use as a reference?

    In the end, all the spinoff shows have their special excuses for weird rank schemes, as all the crews come together because of special factors. Sometimes the excuses are lame, sometimes rather pressing.
    • TNG seems to have a celebrity crew wherein Picard was encouraged to have the First Android, the First Klingon and perhaps also the Ambassador's Daughter on the bridge of the Federation Flagship. He's apparently also allowed a shakedown year after which he deals out the final appointments of his officers.
    • DS9 has a bunch of misfits sent to a job that suddenly becomes much bigger than Starfleet thought.
    • VOY starts out with massive casualties and the adoption of a bunch of pirates as replacement crew.
    • ENT launches into a simple ferry mission that turns into two years of impromptu exploration, then regroups for an armed recce mission with interservices rivalry.
    • DSC has a crew put together for clandestine research by a man with ulterior motivations and good connections.
    • TMP has Kirk round up his old team for a vanity mission.
    • TWoK has Kirk round up his old team for a birthday cruise.
    • TSfS has Kirk round up his old team for a heist.
    • TVH has the posse become celebrities.
    • TFF has all the inconvenient celebrities sent to an assignment where success is unlikely and undesirable.
    • TUC has Spock round up the old team for a Nixon in China propaganda mission.
    • GEN is a pure PR event.
    • FC has the whole TNG lot banished to a shakedown year for their loss of the previous ship and sidelined from Borg action for their dubious loyalties.
    • INS has the TNG lot re-adopt Worf just because.
    • NEM has the TNG lot gather for a wedding.
    Perhaps two movies in all feature a "regular" crew put together the way Starfleet wants...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Commodore Commodore

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    I was actually referring to Lt. Baxter, one of the early season characters that ended up disappearing from the rest of the show. Probably a better fate than what happened to Hogan and Carey. I've always known him as "that dad from Even Stevens".


    [​IMG]
     
  13. saladdays

    saladdays Captain Captain

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    The officer that Georgiou sends to sickbay in episode 2 of season 1 (who then ends up in the brig and talks to Burnham for a bit before being blown into space) says that Starfleet is full of explorers, not soldiers, or something to that effect. I don't think that point would have been made by him or the writers if they were wanting to imply that Starfleet was military.
     
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  14. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Also, if Starfleet is not a military, then its Academy obviously isn't a military academy, either...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  15. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    He had a head injury and went to the brig when he should have gone to sickbay. Can we really trust him as reliable? Besides, later in the first season, when Stamets said the same thing, Lorca got pissed off at him and yelled "then get off my ship!" But I guess now we wave that away because Lorca was from the Mirror Universe?
    And yet...
     
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  16. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That might just be a Pre-Federation Andorian Academy that didn't change its name.
     
  17. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The diploma has the Starfleet arrowhead on it, with Starfleet written around it, making it damn clear this is a Starfleet run installation. I wonder how that works?

    "Starfleet isn't a military."
    "Then how is this a military academy?"
    "Reasons."
     
  18. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    And they need to stop fighting wars....no one expects NASA to defend the USA.
     
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  19. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Probably not; Georgiou is studying there as a "foreigner" by the gist of it.

    But it's Georgiou studying there, and Georgiou is Starfleet, so there's bound to be an arrowhead somewhere. Much like there might be a flag of Iraq on a similar diploma from a US-run academy for a proud new Iraqi battalion commander with US tactical training.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  20. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    One of the two Laikan Military Academy personnel who signed the signature is a Vice Admiral. Since we know from Enterprise the Andorian military uses General for their flag ranks, an Andorian Admiral must therefore be from Starfleet.