Spoilers VOY: Architects of Infinity by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread

Just finished this book this evening. Just a lovely, lovely book. Enjoyed every minute of it.

 

Hi Trek'fm has posted a link on Twitter for their interview with Kirsten Beyer talking about Architechts of Infinity it's a long interview that's over an hour long.

 

I've just started listening to it, and one of the first tidbits is that the cliffhanger ending was originally going to be in "To Lose the Earth" before it was moved ahead.

Personally, it reminded me of the eighth New Frontier book, where everything seems to have wrapped up nicely, and then the last sentence of the novel off-handedly mentioned that the ship exploded five minutes later.

 

45 pages into it and I'm already riveted by the story. Nancy's condition makes me sad, as if she was a member aboard Voyager from the beginning. I wish I knew how Nancy looks like.

 

We had Kirsten on! Hope you enjoy this Literary Treks!

 

Really great interview, guys! Thank you.

 

I really enjoyed listening to Literary trek's interview with Kirsten and how in depth it was discussing her Charcters storyarcs for Nancy Conlon and Harry Kim and Ensign Gwynn. . And about the medical issues and ethics and the scientific and technology ideas and mystery from the alien planet they Circle fleet were exploring. and changing the cliffhanger being switched to this book instead of her How to loose the Earth.

 

Kirsten is just so generous with her answers, blessed to have her on the show! Thanks for listening, was great to dig into the story with her

 

I'm 50 pages in and I'm struggling with this. So far it's all about dealing with interpersonal problems and a lot of wheel spinning that goes nowhere.

As soon as I saw that the book was 256 pages long I knew it was going to be one of those "just get it done" trek books. From what I've read it was a chore to get through and it probably was a chore for Kirsten to write as well. This is a hard pass for me.

 

Why is it so hard for people to not like a book without impugning the author's motives? It's pretty obvious Kirsten worked just as hard on this as she worked on the others (if she had blown it off, we would've gotten it a lot sooner - the delay was because even though she's on Disco she's still taking this seriously). She just went for a different kind of story this time, a slow burn letting some minor characters have some time in the spotlight, and that didn't work for you. That's fine, but why be insulting?

 

I just listened to the podcast and I loved it. As a J/C shipper the only question I missed was about J/C. But other than that, this was a very entertaining, interesting report and interview. I especially loved the fact that acknowledged the acknowledgements at the end of the novel. I had the same feeling, I was very touched when I read it and I am happy someone told Ms. Beyer about it! Thanks for that, too.

 

Well besides, this book isn't 256 pages long, it's 383 pages, so longer than the former #, just noting that.

 

Kirsten seems to work hard on these books,even if I disagree with some aspects.

 

Just finished and really enjoyed it. I think the author has s better grasp on the characters than some other authors do. They "feel" more like thenselves.

My only disappointment except for the moment at the end was not knowing mote about the biodome planet and who built it

 

Finished it minutes ago, and it was outstanding! About a third of the way through it became clear that the adventure/exploration side of the story was definitely taking a back seat to the character arcs. In DS9 books, this largely feels like the spinning of wheels, but Kristen's characters are always, always so engaging for me that I have no problem with the planetside business being less than exciting. I love how her original characters get to take turns being important, and I agree the 'Lower Decks' feeling of this book is by far one of its best features.

I didn't think that Larsen and Devi or Gwyn would ever be important characters (I just kinda thought they'd be background characters like half of TNG's senior staff, sometimes highlighted for their particular abilities), but I also didn't think I'd ever care about Bryce, Conlon, Farkas, Sal, O'donnel, Fife, Cambridge in the long run either. To me, that says a lot about how well she puts together her people. With that in mind, I can't wait to learn more about the background characters that still haven't gotten a chance to make a big impact yet. I think Captain Glenn is deserving of a dedicated character arc sometime soon.

I love Icheb and Bryce, and while I would have preferred things to work out perfectly for them right away because they're so adorable, I am fine with continuing their story as a struggle.

And certainly that ending is not what it appears. I just hope it doesn't take another two years to find out.

 

Yeah that ending.......

It will definately take a while to find out.

 

More focus on characters and less adventure. It's not everyone's cup of tea. But I like it so far. Especially how El'nor Sal is dealing with Nancy's deteriorating condition.

 

I have a few thoughts to share on this.

Preordered this months ago, so it was a bit of a surprise when it came. When I first picked it up, knowing it had had delays, and peeking at the font size versus the page count... A bit light, I thought, but I've been reading DS9 lately which is dense in places, so my perception might be skewed. At first I feared she had to rush it, and it might be a weak instalment. But having read it, I was pleasantly surprised and I'll certainly not misjudge Ms Beyer this way in the future. The character stuff was all great, and I didn't mind that the exploration plot had fewer milestones than normal in order to make room.

My thought with what may be happening on Galen is...

Spoiler: Extrapolation and conjecture from hints in dialogue, not to be construed as a story idea

They faked it. Right? They faked it. Holographic crew uprising. We know from Architects that the Galen's organic crew stick together like a clique, and the organic department heads that have only holographic crew in their sections basically keep to themselves and let the holograms do all the work? Right?

There was that entire conversation in Architects, (obviously I'm paraphrasing here) "Hey btw remember earlier in the mission you guys were thinking, like, hey I wonder if having holograms working as crewmates on a ship might make them woke, like the Doctor? What ever happened with that, any of them start showing any, you know, signs of independent thought?"

"Nah, they're all kind of boring actually. I mean, we don't really supervise them too closely, but it's cool because Engineering is like super clean all the time. The takeaway here is, they're all really good at looking after the ship and running things efficiently as a cohesive group, and I don't have to lift a flesh-and-blood finger. Almost like having slaves, but without the ethics issues, 'cuz they don't count as people."

"Wow. How's the Doctor feel about that?"

"He's cool with it. Our working theory is, we figure he's special because his creator was a total dickbag."

"That tracks. The Doctor probably has no real opinion on the situation. He's never shown much passion for photonic liberation even to the point of mutiny, as far as I know."

"Yep, every single one of them, almost conspicuously non-suspicious. Especially lately. It's pretty great."

On an unrelated note, there's that scene where somebody's noticing that Galen's bulkheads are basically a step up from paper for some reason? Like "Gee I hope nothing explody or space fighty happens, I just noticed a stiff breeze could probably blow the ship to hell." It might have been Harry worrying about Conlon, but I can't quite recall.

There is also the fact that all of the right characters are in the right places when Galen "blows up" to do a good thematic follow-up to Flesh and Blood parts 1 and 2, even if she's working with just who's left on Galen (and whatever holographic characters she skilfully creates out of the supposedly blank-slate idiot holograms described in Architects) for large parts of the next book. And there's a good crop of mystery solvers on Voyager right now to help unwrap the mystery of the maybe-missing Galen. Seven can even uncover a conspiracy and prove that while the ship appeared to be exploded, it actually got pulled into a subspace rupture by photonic fleas who were secretly working with the holo-underground, having previously snuck a pair of spy fleas onto Voyager years earlier to collect intel.

I also want to talk about the whole Icheb/Bryce thing.

For at least the last two books, my feels about this were pretty one-dimensional. "He gay? He gay. They so gay. Yay Kirsten Beyer, they so cute, make them do kissing."

The new development makes it more complicated for me because of personal experiences...

Spoiler: Here's a wall of text about what it's like dating and living with an autistic asexual person.

My live-in partner of four years, who I fucking adore, is on the autistic spectrum. We are both women.

The behavioural traits and communicational "quirks" that arise from her autism have made this relationship more interesting to navigate, from my perspective, than previous relationships I've had. There are occasional challenges. There are certain types of physical sensations from touching, either by me, or certain textures from objects and fabrics she comes into contact with, that she processes the physical sensation experience very differently than most people. As a result, her reactions to everyday things can sometimes appear esoteric to others and it takes some getting used to.

For me as her partner, the process of learning what she especially likes, what she's comfortable with, what things I need to avoid, in order to make her happy has been a worthwhile (if sometimes frustrating) experience for both of us, but I love her very much, and she's definitely worked just as hard in her own way to accommodate my particular quirks and vagaries too.

Here's the thing. She is also grey-ace, which is a label on the asexual spectrum, which in practice in our particular case means that she's "basically" not into sex, but very occasionally she gets into the mood to do some light play or naughty touching. But only on those occasions when she finds that headspace, which can be few and far between. And that's all she's into, she's just made that way.

She does not, and will never, like sex the way I love sex. I like various kinds of sex, including some kinds that she can't or won't do, and I like to have a lot of it. I am energetically libidinous and do suffer from frustration and restlessness, and yeah self-love is great, but only to a point.

But.

Asking her to accommodate those needs for me, when not only does she have no desire, but would find the tactile experience viscerally distressing, would be a cruel and disgusting thing to expect as a compromise from someone-- Particularly someone that you love.

Aside from sex, we basically do all of the things. Cuddle, smooch, cook and eat together, I tease her and pinch her butt, we tell jokes and laugh and love and cry and then usually she makes me watch obscure lesbian movies. We go on dates, exchange gifts-- She has some "semi-obsessive areas of focus" (like, she's super into Overwatch for example). It's an autistic trait, I found it a little strange at first but you know what, it makes gift shopping a rewarding experience because it's always super easy to find things she'll love and it puts the cutest most gorgeous little reserved smiles on her face. And she blushes, under this swishy asymmetric butch hair thing she's got going on, mmm. It's irresistibly adorable.

And there's times I get that urge, and I desperately want to fuck her cute little brains out. But we can't, because it's just not on the menu for her.

Catastrophic unsolvable relationship-killing problem? Nope, super easy, barely an inconvenience. I just fuck other people.

We're polyamorous, so it doesn't bother her. In fact when I have a really good date with someone else, or a great sexual experience with a friend, she's happy for me. The emotion is called "compersion," and it basically operates like "anti-jealousy..." It even kicks in at precisely the same moments that monogamous people would expect to have jealousy. "You got super-laid today? With someone other than me, your loving partner!? That's great, honey!"

Icheb, the way his "situation" is explained in Architects, kind of reads to me as a combination of (some form of) asexuality, and general problems with his space-boners. And some kind of emotional block like Seven had in Human Error? Maybe? Except maybe not? :/

This is what I took from it.

So Bryce is into Icheb, because hey, Icheb's a catch, right, but Icheb discovers this problem with his space-boners. Could still clearly be asexuality, I bet Icheb's not really a big porn guy so he's probably never run into a situation where he can't get it up on the holodeck for Vulcan Love Slave, Male Edition. Though now that I think about it, the way he's written, Icheb feels more like a bottom to me but I digress...

The situation presented up to that point in the story still tracks if he's ace, because he probably never thought much about dicks until it started to get close to dicks o'clock in his progress with Bryce.

So he goes to the Doctor to clarify the issue. And Icheb's like "no, boys are fine, it's the 24th century and I'm from space so why would you even ask me that, also Bryce is so my type." But he's surprised to find that his body does not behave as though it wants the D, at the moment when Icheb would expect that the urge to be wanting the D would kick in.

I get that his ding-dong's not responding, but the emotions he's experiencing when Bryce finally kisses him are a bit confusing for me. Does he like the kiss? He seems glad but unsure..? I guess? I might be confused because my reading of the situation is heavily influenced by my experiences with my own partner. Icheb seems (by my reading) like he was happy that the kiss happened, in that it opened up a way forward to allow him to become closer to Bryce, with whom he desires non-specific intimacy because they get along and Bryce makes him happy. But he didn't feel the "spark?" Is that it?

So there's emotional satisfaction with the closeness, a desire for further and continued closeness, but the physical aspect of the closeness just, like, fails to recrystalize the dilithium in Icheb's reaction chamber, so to speak. So Icheb doesn't want the D.

But then, when it comes to the subject of concern over developing his relationship with Bryce further, it's like Icheb and the Doctor are treating it like the relationship has "reached its natural sexual stage" and Icheb is worried (that Bryce won't like him??) because he's not feeling a taste for the D right now, and maybe he can't got space-boners. And on this basis, Icheb in his conversation with the Doctor basically makes it clear that while he's sure he does not currently want the D, he wants to want the D, because Bryce.

This is where I'm thinking things might get dicy. An asexual person could probably do a better job explaining this than I will, but here goes.

Real life asexual people are often conditioned to feel shame, and socially ostracized, for their lack of sexual desire and different responses to physical intimacy. In many cases they are pressured by their friends, family, by society in general and pop-culture, and often (ugh) directly by their non-asexual partners who want to do sex things in the context of their intimate partner relationship, because "that is what partners do."

Consequently, a lot of asexual people-- And this is a big deal-- Go to their therapists and their doctors, and they say "something's wrong with me, I'm broken, my sex parts and feels aren't working, I want to want the D. Make me want the D so I'll be normal, and my partner won't dump me and my friends won't disown me and my family won't take me out and leave me on the mountain side." And then, after some permutation of bad advice, snake oil, sugar pills, and uncomfortable, unsatisfying and (coercively) consensual but fundamentally unwanted sexual experiences, everyone involved always ends up miserable at the end anyway.

I'm concerned about the Doctor being involved with this, and would prefer Icheb deal only with Sharak on this issue (Sharak is his actual doctor anyway? Right?). I'm sure Sharak can help Icheb deal with this just fine. Shumon and Barok in the locker room. Barok, his shorts tight. Shumon, unsure at the doorway. Shumon and Barok, at the movies. Problem solved.

Especially considering how the Doctor flagrantly mishandled and abused his position as social mentor for Seven of Nine, his "I wasn't programmed for subtlety" not-so-secret creepy doctor-patient crush. ("She's never experienced living as a woman before, so I gave her a skintight suit and footwear with tiny stilts to walk on. They're called "high heels," I found them in the replicator files under "historical fetish wear." I also gave her long flowing blonde hair that she'll need to painstakingly arrange in a modified french twist each morning, and gently tease for volume. A vicarious experience, as you might imagine. I had to apply the facial pigmentation surgically; As a Borg, she's unaccustomed to making herself presentable to others, but we'll cover that in our first social lesson... 'The More You Act Like a Lady, the More He'll Act Like a Gentleman.'")

It all comes down to the kiss. When I kiss my partner, there's tingles. She likes to be kissed. Not so much with the tongue, that's just a bit much for her. And light petting is a crowd pleaser, but go harder and it's "no thanks." To what degree, then, might Icheb and Bryce just be, you know, a couple of young space guys learning about each other's boundaries, and Icheb's just not sure what's what? I guess I need to go re-read the ending of the book. I might be getting a little too worked up over this.

My main fears are...

If they treat asexuality as a disease that needs to be, ought to be, or even can be, cured, that's a bad message.

If they treat emotional attraction, romantic attraction, and sexual attraction as inextricably linked, that's a bad message. (The kiss. It confuses me as much as it confused Icheb. Can he get the kiss spark back without it also being about space boners? Is he missing his love and closeness feels too, or not? Is he maybe just shy?)

Most of all, it bothered me that Icheb bypassed talking to Bryce and went straight to photonic Casanova. He should just talk to Bryce. They can just be intimate and not fuck. They don't even have to be polyamorous, Bryce can just go romp with holo-twinks unless

Spoiler

the Galen holo-crew uprising happens and Janeway has to make it illegal or whatever.

I'm not trying to be overly critical. I loved the book. I have faith that Beyer will handle the relationship issues responsibly, I just have a bad taste left over from Human Error and I'm being paranoid because this hits a little close to home.

 

I had some similar (but far less specific) questions about the Icheb plot, myself. While I was reminded of what I've heard of asexuality at first, when we found out more about what was going on, I was thinking it mapped more onto PTSD-type reactions to intimacy in people who've been abused or otherwise been "trained" into negative or null responses to sex and intimacy. The impression I got was that Icheb's block was very far-ranging but, as you said, he was reserved and shy enough that he never really noticed before. It sounded like he also couldn't, say, have a fit of laughter, or if he was seriously hurt he'd acknowledge it only on an intellectual level (I suppose enhanced Borg motor control would account for why he hasn't hurt himself the way real-world people who can't feel pain can; glancing at that article, it seems Icheb's situation is "indifference" to stimuli rather than "insensitivity").

I'm mostly waiting to see how things work out. I'm afraid that this might end up being one of those "Whoops, the sci-fi metaphor is actually a real thing that happens to real people that I didn't know about" situations, but I honestly couldn't tell if the reason the real-world analogs weren't brought up by the doctors is because the author wasn't aware of them, or if she felt it'd be too on the nose, like in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" where Sulu and Chekov have a conversation about how the aliens are fighting each other over skin color, just like the foolish racism back on 20th century Earth they read about in history class.

 

Having problems. Can someone provide a direct link to the podcast with Kirsten.