Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

No it wasn’t. The movie was pretty clear about that. Did you even watch the movie? Because it seemed like you missed large chunks of it.

 

So, the Force's impact mus change, but the heroes don't change? Am I following that correctly?

And then he introduced shades of gray with the PT: "There are heroes on both sides." He has a hero character state "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." Lucas is the one that introduced more gray, more the idea that the Jedi lost their way. So, before fault gets thrown at the ST for moving away from the mythological tropes, Lucas did it first.

Secondly, mythos vary. Even the story of Robin Hood and Arthur has change across the ages. And, Lucas didn't craft it just from mythology of hold but also the action adventure serials that he enjoyed as a child. So, it isn't strict mythology in using tropes either.

As for communicating something to generations, guess what? My younger daughters enjoy the characters of the new films. So, mission accomplished of the story carrying on.

No, it doesn't feel realistic because it doesn't feel like she made a choice. Padme feels resistant to Anakin until, in Geonosis, she isn't. It feels very scripted, that not matter what Anakin did, Padme would fall for him. That's not realistic, nor compelling.

It doesn't feel like love. It feels very fatalistic. And, as mythology, that works ok. As character driven and "realistic" it misses the mark.

 

Padme feel in love with him because they had to wrap up the movie and Lucas had already decided she was Luke and Leia’s Mom. Twilight has a more realistic relationship. It’s based on a ton of abuse, but that really happens unfortunately.

 

That was just poor writing though. I have always believed that the PT would have worked much better with Anakin as a Han Solo type--using his bravado to cover up his internal pain. AotC would have worked much better with Padme/Anakin paralleling the Leia/Solo dynamic--up to a point. It would have worked much better.

 

It does, I'm aware of this. But, that doesn't make it a compelling story or drama, if it feels like Padme has to get together with Anakin.

 

It's not so hot in India either. The West needs to accept that there are VAST swathes of land and their people who have strong and deep enough popculture roots of their own to which THEY respond better than imported stuff from outside.

Btw, re Leia's time in "space" -- I'm betting they use that for a reason for her eventual death by the time we get EpIX.

 

Poor writing wasn't the concept of the relationship. Poor writing was the dialogue and plot.

 

It was all poor writing.

 

The fundamental problem with the whole thing can really be boiled down to the fact that the backstory Lucas conceived was just too big and complex to fit into three "action adventure for all ages" movies. It's the same reason 'The Clone Was' show did it so much better since it had *way* more room to really get to know these character, work of the world building and tell all kinds of related stories in new and interesting ways.

Cramming just the essentials down to just three movies seriously crippled the coherence of that story and it's characters. For example, in AotC we get exactly one shot of Anakin being himself in the elevator with Obi-Wan before he's acting like a petulant idiot, because he's suddenly trying to show off in front of Padme. Had we been given more time to get to know him, this character turn would have been more effective and we wouldn't be left with the assumption that this is what he's always like.

Another thing about Lucas with is often a mixed blessing is that he never seems to want to retread old ground very much, so each film seems to push out further into new territory. That's partly (but of course not *only*) why many fans recoiled at how the prequels "just didn't feel like Star Wars". A complaint I find hard to credit because even in the OT, each movie was very distinct from the last, both visually and in terms of narrative structure and pacing.
Again, for example there's a very clear narrative reason why everything in the prequels looked so shiny and more advanced compared to the OT's signature "lived in universe" production design, but that's lost on the casual view who just sees it as unfamiliar. Specifically that the latter is indicative of a run down, oppressed galaxy where automation and assembly line mentality has supplanted the artisan craftsmanship of the former. Just look at the production design on display in Cloud City and you can clearly see it's meant to evoke some of that lost glory and culture of the Republic, so these idea have been around since the beginning.

 

It's called contrivance and it's a bad aspect of filmmaking.

For instance, I didn't buy the 'romance' in Arrival either, and that was a movie that got great reviews. Romance that happens because the plot revolves around it (usually to produce a kid) always comes across as phoney and unsatisfying.

 

????
I don't get what you are saying. Of course the concept of the relationship was inherent to the story. It was how the story got there that was the problem---hence poor writing.

 

In the visual dictionary, the there is an image of one of the bombs from the start of the movie, it has “Han says hi” painted on it in aurebesh. Hehe.

 

This, everything comes down to this. Star Wars, as much as is made about it being "modern day myth making" is also based upon serial films that Lucas enjoyed as a child. It is an amalgamation of many different influences, and each one built upon and expanded the last, starting with ESB and progressing to TLJ.

This cannot be understated.

 

What romance? She only shows interest in him at the end of the film, which we know will not work out. Even then, it’s only because she knows she has to. It’s only shown to show that she’s not going to attempt to change anything even if she knows the results.

 

I did not say it "must" change, but the fact that it was stands a major shift (change) in one the driving elements of the series. That does not automatically mean all of the series' fairy tale traditions must be removed as well, as it SW must retain some of its defining roots/identity. A romance for Rey would not be out of place, but following a Star Wars pattern.

Part of the ROTS crawl that was questioned as soon as the film was released, as it never played out on screen. The side occupied / represented by Dooku, Sidious, the Trade Federation, General Grevious, et al., were all corrupt. There was no heroism among any of those parties, making the line pointless.

Gray is not completely altering his fairy tale/myth structure. Obi-Wan's line did not make him the YouTube-abused "gray Jedi", (or gray personality in general) as he was right about Anakin, Sidious and why they had to be stopped.

Yet 6 films were following his own brand of the fairy tale/myth in a very tight fashion--from hidden/mystery family relationships, to tragic romance, reluctant rogues turned into heroes, to the rise (from obscurity) of one hero, while another rises, then falls. None of that ran off the tracks of long-lived fairy tale/myth motifs, because it was intended to follow a traditional structure. Suddenly going off in different directions (again, for no valid reason, other than for change's sake) makes little sense, hence the reason Lucas did not do that in a trilogy produced between the mid 70s to early 80s, and another largely (with the exception of TPM) from the early 21st. Very different social and political eras, yet Lucas remained on his course.

Despite Padme fearing what a relationship would mean for both, she fell into full-on romance while on Naboo. That did not come out of nowhere on Geonosis, but it was a process: she fell for him, but still understood some of his problems, which did not wipe away her belief that deep down, he was good, which only drew her closer to him.

There's nothing fatalistic about the way Lucas created Padme to be that dedicated, only to be repaid with heartbreak (for Anakin as well). It is--after all--a fairy tale, and tragic romance is one of its more familiar elements, which--in this case--was necessary as part of Anakin's fall.

 

No, but it doesn't mean they can't be changed either. I agree that a romance for Rey would absolutely be within the pattern. But, I also think it is within the same pattern to have a hero learn ancient mystic ways and not be in a relationship. in both instances, a pattern is being followed.

No, it isn't pointless because it speaks to the intention on the part of the author.

That's exactly what Lucas did with TPM. We are far enough removed from it to not see the changes, but they are there. AOTC was a further deviation in some instances.

None of this in TLJ runs "off the track" of traditional fairy tale mythos either. You can't discount TPM either because the base of the argument is "For six films..."

TPM started the trend and allowed new stories to be told.

And then she ignored the problems and her own values for the sake of her love. You are correct in that it is tragic, but not for the reasons being argued. It is tragic in that she feels she must throw away her fears and risk her career, and to hell with the consequences. It doesn't feel like it flows from the character in a smooth way. This is partially damaged by the cutting of Padme's arc in ROTS, as well as the deleted scene with Padme's family.

Again, there is great intention there, but watching the film leaves an emotional and character difficulty that I struggle to get past, especially in AOTC, and I like that film.

That's the part that bothers be-necessary to Anakin's fall. None of it feels like these players have agency. Just wheels in fate's (or the Force's?) machine work that they cannot stop.

Again, as myth, it works ok. As characters that I care about and dramatic storytelling? It fails to engage me on a personal level.

 

What I'm saying is the CONCEPT of Anakin was excellent, not the execution. And much of that was the dialogue and plotting. Of course, HC's acting did not help.

 

It's Grievous.

 

I’ve seen it 4 times in Tokyo, thebkadrbin 3D IMAX. One of the best SW films. I’m glad it pissed off those who think they own Star Wars. This movie wasn’t TFA 2.0 any more than TESB was ANH 2.0. They both turned their predecessors on their heads. And I think it’s an oversimplification to say TFA sis ANH 2.0. And, of course, TLJ isn’t TESB 2.0.

 

It fairness, Star Wars has never really tried to have "realistic" character interactions and instead has always gone for the more straight-forward, intentionally two dimensional style in the vein of the old adventure serials that inspired it. I mean, why does Dale love Flash again? Because he's the main character of course!

The thing with this is, if you read enough of his interviews over the decades it becomes very clear that Lucas is painfully aware of his shortcomings as a writer. He deliberately keeps these interpersonal relationships reasonable simple because he knows if he strays too far outside his comfort zone it's going to deteriorate into a really bad melodrama (yes, probably worse than even AotC.)

Probably the most hilarious example of this sort of thing is in one of the earlier drafts of Star Wars (the 2nd, I think?) where somewhere near the end of the second act, Annikin suddenly declares that he thinks he loves the princess. Like, practically out of nowhere where they've barely interacted the whole movie and the response of the character he confesses it to is basically "no time for that now boy, we have an exciting action scene to do!"
This to me is indicative of a writer that knows he has to fit a romance in there somewhere, but isn't sure how to make it work organically.
Indeed, in ANH, he basically side-steps the whole thing by reducing it down to Luke being boyishly smitten at first sight and Han making a passing, almost wistful remark near the end. I get the impression the main reason why the Han/Leia romance worked so much better in Empire is because of three main factors:-

1. The whole movie was much more intimate and character focused, allowing for more interactions and breathing room between action sequences.
2. Both Fisher and Ford seemed to be more actively engaged in refining their dialogue this time around and even going so far as to re-shoot and re-jig some scenes that just didn't work as well the first time around.
3. As it turns out, the two of them had actually boinked by this point, so the chemistry was very real.

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By contrast, Portman & Christensen had very little time and clearly not a lot of chemistry. Plus the relationship had to start from a place of "hey, I remember when you were a 10 year old sprog that shouted 'yippiee!' a lot.", which is guaranteed to hobble just about any romance story and that's without taking into account need to fit this in with the very elaborate plotting the movie had to do to set up both the larger galactic conflict on the horizon and the internal conflict within Anakin.
To illustrate just how much Lucas ended up condensing what he's initially had in mind for this part of the saga, here's his very early notes made during early development of tESB (presumably before SW was re-released in theatres as "Episode IV: A New Hope")

Note how the Clone Wars was supposed to be a trilogy all on it's own, with what would become TPM & RotS being bookends to the whole thing. One assumes had he held to this structure that Anakin & Padme's relationship and Anakin's slide towards the dark side would have been more subtle and better explored over the course of three movies instead of the b-plot of one movie.