CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

Discussion in 'Fan Productions' started by Richard Baker, Dec 30, 2015.

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  1. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Admiral Admiral

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    That's not entirely true. There's a market for licenses for other merchandise. They just aren't interested in selling their interest in making tv or film.

    Why would they want to dilute their brand? Why would they want to turn the keys of Star Trek over to people with very little experience? Even for a little bit of profit. Look how badly Enterprise damaged Star Trek, and it was THEIRS.

    Huh. People having an affinity for a very well known franchise? Huh. Go figure.

    Bingo. Thus why, after Axanar, CBS and Paramount decided to add some restrictions on fan films as it seems like some fans will put money down for anything labeled Star Trek.

    What does this even mean? Yes or no, would you be ok if CBS took your distinctive ideas and created a derivative work without compensation?

    I don't know how to make it any plain: if you take something that is not yours without permission, what is that called?

    I agree, it is infringement of copyright. It's stealing someone's IP. If you don't like what I am saying, you are free to scroll past my posts. No one is forcing you to respond.



    They don't. As they are finishing up what they made before the guidelines were introduced--and thus grandfathered in, and aren't producing anymore.

    What evidence do you have to make you believe this?
     
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  2. feek61

    feek61 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm sure it's already been said but STC (which is a legitimate non-profit) has communicated with CBS and worked with them to finish the series as intended; well before the Axanar debacle. They have an unwritten agreement that they will be allowed to fulfill the commitment to the fans who donated to finish the episodes. STC cut a few episode from the intended run to comply with CBS's wishes. It is a lesson on how to maintain good relationships with the IP owner, IMO.
     
  3. JRTStarlight

    JRTStarlight Captain Captain

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    I have never had a problem with chickens or eggs, although, I do like chicken omelets, which some people feel is just going too far and is a huge transgression against the species. But seriously, some non-chicken, for it must have laid other eggs that did not produce chickens, at some point laid an egg with a genetic mutation that would cross whatever arbitrary line you define that makes a chicken. Thus, the chicken egg came first - QED. And if I had been there, I might have eaten it before it could have reproduced, and hence committed one of the worst crimes against humanity ever conceived - KFC.

    This might lead to favoritism, kickbacks, bribes, or other unsavory aspects of the fan film community. Even the appearance of favoritism may cause rancor.

    I think that's too bad. I like the longer treatment, and Trek, in particular, was more a thinking fan's series since they often had large segments to discuss some theory and plan their actions. At least if they had better crafted a guideline to reflect the typical hour-long episode - (really 44 minutes, so call it 45) – then THREE such segments could have been made, and I think it would kept fan films away from feature-length works (which is what CBS and Paramount makes) and better served and pleased the fan base and the fan film makers without such a more burdensome time limit.
     
  4. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Why on earth would you "fear" that? (That's a rhetorical question -- when you've seen one Axanarian concern troll, you've seen them all.)

    What's there to "fear" about productions who treat the IP holder with significantly more respect than Axanar does being treated in turn with more significantly more respect by the IP holder than Axanar is treated? Far from "fear," it's precisely the correct, humane (and human) way to go.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  5. JRTStarlight

    JRTStarlight Captain Captain

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    Too bad those are not published to a text listing of the 10 guidelines (that I can easily find yet in a Google search). But O.K. And one may even understand if some work is already in the can how burdensome it would be to change it. But I suspect much of isn't. For example, do they omit "Star Trek" in the title? Not that I want STC to be reigned in, you understand, but I don't think they couldn't reasonably comply with more of the guidelines if they were that important.

    Damn! I knew I should have copyrighted that phrase.

    None. Feel free to dismiss it. No one will be happier than I if the guidelines are uniformly and fairly applied, except perhaps my brother, and some of his friends. Oh yes, and Captain Johnston. Come to think of it, most people like a uniform application of the guidelines more than I do. But that's beside the point.

    So, I'm just a troll? Well, if that's all you see, then that's all you probably ever will. You shouldn't talk to trolls. Didn't your mother ever teach you that?
     
  6. JRTStarlight

    JRTStarlight Captain Captain

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    Like enjoyment and fun? I thought of another word. Sharing.

    Suppose I came over to your house for a play date, and your mother has us play in your room since that's where you have your toys spread all over the place. Naturally, there are some toys designed for more than one person to play with at the same time, but many aren't, and we could both be happy by playing alone in the same room with different toys. But suppose for some reason every toy I picked up suddenly became your favorite toy, even though you hadn't played with that toy in weeks or months. Every time I pick one up, you take it away. MINE! Well, I'm not even going to suggest you are doing anything illegal or you aren't within your legal rights. But I would suggest if I picked up a toy, even if you hadn't explicitly told me I could, and even if I hadn't asked, this would not constitute stealing. But what else can you call it when I take something of yours without asking? Maybe what your mother has to say about what's acceptable behavior might come into play (loosely translated as this is copyright law and a civil matter to help regulate civil behavior). And the likely fact you sharing more would probably be good for you, earn you more friends, and make you a better person is beside the point, too (loosely translated as increasing the IP value and exposure).

    Of course I'd agree if I hid some of your toys on me and took them home without your knowledge that that would be stealing. But fan film producers aren't doing that - at least not always, and copyright infringement, too, has a line where civil law is left behind and criminal law will then apply - mostly about counterfeiting and copying and distribution. But again, most of the examples we use when discussing fanfilmdom are not crossing that line.

    So, yeah, I think civil Sharing is a good term.

    I distrust, or trust less such verbal suggestions and would prefer it written out for fanfilmdom (even when it's actually written out, it's still not a promise not to sue). I wonder. If Mr. Pink had a Trek fan project that's 90% in the can but he had to shelf it until he could raise more money for editing equipment, and there were more than a few copyright infringements, but no more than a typical fan film before the guidelines, maybe even less, and he could prove it was on the shelf before the guidelines, do you think CBS/Paramount would grandfather those in, even if he had more than a few of them?

    I should restate this, as while I still have no evidence there will be non-uniform application of the guidelines, there are a few people here who apparently believe it. They say things like, you play nice and give CBS/Paramount hugs and kisses and they will treat you better. You're indifferent, they won't. They don't like you, for any reason, perhaps not even related to your project, and they could be a more active hindrance - and do it legally to boot. None of that is proof they will. But I think it shows that more than I think they might apply the guidelines non-uniformly. And I do still wonder if this might create more than the appearance of favoritism at times and prove to be problematic if it's true.

    I fear if non-uniform treatment is the rule, it will be to the detriment of all fanfilmdom, and could cause needless bitterness between fans who might wish to champion different projects. I guess that's the best answer I can give, for a Troll. Now, if you will excuse me, I have to go and regenerate.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  7. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There's nothing to fear: Axanar has already been sued. The constraints that Axanar is on are LEGALLY BINDING as a result of their mutually agreed settlement with CBS.
    No other fan film is under any constraints at all; remember that these are guidelines not rules. CBS, if it wished, could still sue any fan film that fully complied with the guidelines and would be legally allowed to do so. The guidelines are not legally binding - the terms that Axanar agreed to most certainly are.

    CBS isn't interested in policing fan films, something that was stated very clearly by Van Citters in the "Engage" podcast. This is not about enforcement of edicts, this is providing a "safe zone" that fan films can play in. Nothing stops groups from straying over the line, and there are no guarantees that CBS will immediately smack them down if they do. This is about mutual respect and common sense at the end of the day, something that all but one fan film (that wasn't even calling itself a fan film) understood entirely.
     
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  8. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Admiral Admiral

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    Forgive me, but, I'm not sure I understand your example. In your scenario, the entitled kid screaming "Mine, MINE!" is that supposed to represent the fan? Or the studio?

    Because, where your analogy falls apart, the studio hasn't invited anyone to play with their toys. A better example would be, having seen a kid playing with his toys, another kid decides to just go over to the first kids house without invitation and without permission and start playing with the toys.

    See... it's the PERMISSION part you keep leaving out of your examples.... you leave it out, because you know, without permission, you are in a morally grey area. And you are doing your best to free fan films from being morally grey. You see yourself as fighting for the little guy, but, it's that little guy who is taking something without their permission, i.e., stealing something that doesn't belong to them.

    Do you know mind the stealing because it's a big corporation? Would you feel differently about derivative works if CBS stole something from the little guy? What would you say then?
     
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  9. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Alec Peters was the only one who asked for guidelines - while he ran an unlicensed Star Trek merchandise operation, while he visited conventions and raised more and more money using Star Trek's name and imagery. While he outfitted a studio instead of making the promised film and while he paid himself a salary and covered his and his friends' expenses (Axanar related or otherwise) from Axanar funds.

    He dared them to tell him he couldn't do it, and they did. Of course they're going to make him adhere to the rules he specifically asked for.
     
  10. Sgt_G

    Sgt_G Commodore Commodore

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    Maybe there's a character-limit for how much can be pulled into edit mode. :whistle:
     
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  11. Squiggy

    Squiggy FrozenToad Admiral

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    Can I have a night with the wife?

    No?

    Why do you not respect the fandom?
     
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  12. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Admiral Admiral

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    Also: who says stealing precludes having fun? The guys in Oceans 11 sure seemed to be enjoying themselves as they robbed the casino. I know I had fun.

    But let's not talk about Oceans 12.
     
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  13. mos6507

    mos6507 Commodore Commodore

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    Star Trek Continues.

    I know they are trying to tread as softly as possible while doing it, but they are technically violating them.
     
  14. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Admiral Admiral

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    As has been stated: they are grandfathered. And halting after these last releases.
     
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  15. Matthew Raymond

    Matthew Raymond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Actually, that's trademark.
    The difference her is that they metaphorically want you to come and play with their toys...
    ...So, what we have here is CBS saying "we love watching you play with our toys", but not explicitly granting permission to play with them.

    I should point out that whether or not this situation is "fair" is not itself advocating for certain behaviors. We can have a discussion about the fairness of the guidelines without implying that people should willfully break them. The best solution for some people may be to simply walk away.
     
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  16. Krandor

    Krandor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    STC is defintiely treading into a gray area but I think they are counting on the fact that they have a good relationshipwith CBS, haven't tried to make a business out of star trek, and are going to close down after these last episodes means that C/P is going to leave them alone. They might be right and they might not, but my opinion is if CBS had an issue with them finishing up these last episodes like they are they would have already been contacted.
     
  17. Tom

    Tom Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No need to worry about STC and CBS, nothing to see here folks.. moving on. ;)
     
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  18. Krandor

    Krandor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't pity him. He knew what he was doing.
     
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  19. Krandor

    Krandor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    He came up with a list of proposed guidelines however he left loopholes in them you could drive a truck though would would have let axanar continue to do exactly what they were doing
     
  20. Matthew Raymond

    Matthew Raymond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Oh, I mean I pity him like Sylvester McCoy in Remembrance of the Daleks...

    Davros: Have pity on me.
    Doctor: I have pity for you.
     
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