Spoilers Wonder Woman - Grading & Discussion

...and the logical response is...

DigificWriter you are correct; as you see, there's a hardheaded agenda at work here, which lives next to the unrealistic fantasy that directors work in isolation as some master controller. As proficient as the Russos are with their MCU films (the best of that franchise), even they are not sitting on a mountaintop, making it all happen alone. Moreover, to anyone not wearing Snyder-Hate glasses, its obvious how much his influence shaped Wonder Woman (as part of the larger series), along working with Jenkins own world building, which was apparent in certain chapters of the film. Ah, but again, its some insult to even suggest the person (Snyder) tasked with shaping a film universe continued to do his job on this film. Ridiculous.

 

Very similar on a number of levels. I think someone made a short list in the first few pages of the thread actually. It was still well done. The only thing WW didn't have that CA:TFA did was the war effort montage that seems to be the #1 grating element for those who think CA:TFA was lacking.

 

Captain Craig, the Cap/WW list was part of my review--

The comparison--

CA: The origin story begins and concludes during one of the great wars of the 20th century.
WW: The origin story begins and concludes during one of the great wars of the 20th century.

CA: A young, inexperienced person seeks to enter a war as a way of stopping it, with others doubting his potential to be effective. Steve Rogers is presented as a young man with--almost--a physical revulsion of man's abuse of other men.
WW: A young, inexperienced person seeks to enter a war as a way of stopping it with others doubting her potential to be effective. Diana is presented as a young woman with--almost--a physical revulsion of man's abuse of other men.

CA: Enemy agent trying to retrieve a vial of the Super Soldier formula is attacked, ultimately committing suicide with a cyanide capsule
WW: Enemy agent trying to retrieve Dr. Poison's book is attacked, ultimately committing suicide with a cyanide capsule.

CA: The main villain--The Red Skull--repeatedly tells the hero that he's not living up to his true potential, which would include being a conqueror at his side.
WW: The main villain--Ares--repeatedly tells the heroine that she's not living up to her true potential, which would include being a conqueror at his side.

CA: Dr.Erskine--who saw Steve's true, inner good, and believed that he had the right potential to become the Super Soldier (and all that the position means for the world)--is killed by a Hydra agent. His death (and faith in Steve) adds to Steve's already morally solid resolve to do whatever he can to work toward ending the global conflict.
WW: Antiope--who saw Diana's true potential is killed by a German soldier. Her death (and faith in Diana) adds to Diana's already morally solid resolve to do whatever she can to work toward ending the global conflict.

CA: The Red Skull relies on brilliant scientist Arnim Zola to apply the Tessaract's energies to various advanced weapon designs. Though Zola has abilities that would (in theory) make him arrogant, his personality is clearly kept in a submissive position by The Red Skull. Of the two, he is the only one to survive the war.
WW: Ludendorff relies on brilliant scientist Dr. Maru / Poison to develop advanced chemical weapons. Though Maru has abilities that would (in theory) make her arrogant, her personality is clearly kept in a submissive position by Ludendorff. Of the two, she is the only one to survive the war.

Here's where main and supporting character actions are split--in Wonder Woman's case, given to the supporting character, but the events are the same:

CA: Captain America assembles a select team of racially diverse specialists with equally diverse personalities.
WW: Steve Trevor assembles a select team of racially diverse specialists with equally diverse personalities.

CA: Captain America boards The Red Skull's advanced aircraft, fights enemies (ultimately taking control of the ship). The aircraft is armed with equally advanced, Tessaract energy-based weapons of mass destruction, which the villain intends to use as part of his mission of conquest.
WW: Steve Trevor boards Ludendorff's advanced aircraft, fights enemies (ultimately taking control of the ship). The aircraft is armed with the advanced form of mustard gas, which Ludendorff intends to use as part of his mission of conquest.

CA: Captain America purposely crashes the Skull's aircraft as the only means of stopping its bombing run.
WW: Steve purposely destroys Ludendorff's aircraft as the only means of eliminating the gas bombs / bombing mission.

CA: Steve Rogers' first, real romance is with an agent--Peggy Carter--the woman he also fights alongside, but their romance is short-lived.
WW: Diana's first, real romance is with Allied spy Steve Trevor--the man she also fights alongside, but their romance is short-lived.

Although present day Cap wistfully looks back to his lost love Peggy in Captain America: The Winter Soldier (and visits the ailing, elderly Peggy), Wonder Woman's present day framing sequence of Diana and the WW1 photo places her in the same, emotional place.

Despite that wealth of clear inspiration / similarities, Wonder Woman--like The First Avenger--was a grand film that added a necessary foundation to the (partial) origins of their respective film universes, using the worst of conflicts to catapult them to hero status. Gadot carried the film on her shoulders, having to create a character (that never had much of a competent filmed inspiration to draw from) and made it--as in Dawn of Justice--her own. The one and only Wonder Woman, and the greatest filmed female comic character--all others (movies & TV) are left in the dust.

The difference here is that in the MCU, Steve Rogers/Cap easily became the moral center of that universe, while in DC's Diana would have competition with Superman in that category.

 

It was an A for me. Gal Gadot knocked it out of the park: inspiring, gorgeous, charming, guileless, convincingly kinetic, unexpectedly funny. (I too remember that old thread about how she was never going to pull off Wonder Woman. Felt like she'd bury that argument when I saw her brief turn in BvS, and she certainly delivered.) Chris Pine did solid work as Steve Trevor; I was actually a little upset that they knocked him off, but then he could hardly still be around adventuring a hundred years later. And I daresay the unexpected casting of Ares worked out better than I would have imagined if anyone had told me about it going in.

(And yeah, it's quite similar to Captain America. A little too closely so in some respects except that its delivery of the action and its central character were so distinct. So I feel pretty forgiving of that.)

I also really dig Wonder Woman's Led Zeppelin-esque theme music.

 

Would you mind sharing these links? I'm honestly curious to read them.

FYI, I didn't do much digging but I did find a quote from Jenkins about Snyder's involvement in the film. The quote has been copied in italics below.

"Zack was making Batman V Superman simultaneous to making this, but he was very instrumental in the direction the film was going to take. That ended up leading to my signing on, because I know enough about these worlds now that unless we really have a shared vision, it's going to be two years of fighting, and who wants that? I had a very strong feeling of what kind of Wonder Woman film I'd want to make."

Let's unpack that quote. First of all, Jenkins confirms Snyder was working on Batman v Superman (and then started shooting Justice League months after BvS opened) while she was doing Wonder Woman. So I doubt Snyder had the kind of active role in the film you are suggesting. I think he helped outline the story, including choosing the World War I setting, and probably had a few conversations with Jenkins about the film. Wonder Woman is a very grounded superhero movie, which is probably the only comparison I'd make to Snyder's superhero movies.

Jenkins literally says "I had a very strong feeling of what kind of Wonder Woman film I'd want to make". I think it is clear in the film itself that the film is wholly and thoroughly Jenkins' movie. From the tone, to the cinematography, the editing and the acting. It's just leaps and bounds above anything Snyder has ever done. I mean, I seriously doubt Snyder was on set everyday (while he was directing Batman v Superman) whispering into Jenkins' ear as she was directing actors.

 

I dunno, @JacksonArcher. I thought WW was quite in keeping with the tone of Snyder's movies to this point. He didn't literally have to be on set every day to have an influence. Jenkins most certainly delivered her own thing but it was well within the parameters of what had previously been set up.

It's just there's a lot less misplaced nerdrage this time out because in all honesty, outside of the kind of people who thought Gal Gadot didn't look enough like Lynda Carter (or whatever their pet ideal of a Real Woman or Real Wonder Woman was), WW is on the whole carrying less baggage than Batman or Superman about what her kind of story is "supposed" to be -- and also this movie got to play within a frame that played directly to whatever baggage did exist. That is the stark contrast to movies like MoS and BvS, which were open about deconstructing their characters' foundational myths in ways that, while still canonical, were unexpected (and which, I would argue, is a big part of the reason there was pushback from critics and dedicated nerds, often one and the same thing at this point, but not from audiences).

Be that as it may, the whole thrust of the movie is still setting her up to operate in the morally-ambiguous the-heroes-don't-always-get-a-clean-win universe that Snyder pulled out of previous material. It doesn't take away from Jenkins to give Snyder his own due in making that possible and say that yes, this movie is a big, big win for both Jenkins' direction and Snyder's vision.

 

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Snyder did a great job as a Producer and Screenwriter for Wonder Woman. I think what @JacksonArcher is referring to is that some people (outside TrekBBS, obviously) are practically claiming he Co-Directed the Movie with her and that's factually wrong. Not even Zack would make a nonsense claim like that.

Especially when Snyder shared Writing credits with Allan Heinberg (who also did the Screenplay) and Jason Fuchs... So, yeah, his vision had a lot to do why WW was so great. However, let's not forget that Jenkins/Fuchs/Heinberg also contributed with their own visions.

 

^ It's not factually wrong, though. He was physically present on the Wonder Woman set, and Patty, in some interviews, flat-out said that she worked very closely with him.

 

It's factually wrong.

Actually, Snyder shares co-story credit. He didn't actually contribute to the screenplay of the film.

 

I think overall the movie was good, steve trevor was the best character in my opinion. I have never been convinced by gal gadots acting and i was scared she would drag this movie down. However i was pleasantly surprised that shedid an adequate job, her acting wasnt special and it didnt take wonder woman to new heights but it was adequate. She has the wonder woman look down to a t and the director was able to maker her likeable and relateable. The most important thing in this movie was her chemistry with steve trevor and chris pine was perfectly cast in that role.
I dont have any real gripes with the movie except for maybe a few plotholes concerning the gods and why the amazons where created but sometimes the movies just need a reason to have a plot. A B- for me.

 

Houston Sharp, one of the artists behind the animated paintings in the movie released some stills from the sequence(and some that were cut):
http://screenrant.com/wonder-woman-history-lesson-art-images/

 

Some thought that she should look like a female wrestler, but not in so many words.

 

Ciara Wardlow, The Hollywood Reporter: 'Wonder Woman': One Thing It's Missing

Both WWI and WWII had the Allied Powers (with some different additions and losses of countries involved) facing off against the Germans, but in WWI the Germans were not Nazis, which Wonder Woman seems to forget at times. For all the fuss it makes over the chemical weapons Doctor Poison (Elena Anaya) develops under General Ludendorff (Danny Huston), it ignores the elephant in the room: Both sides were equally guilty of utilizing chemical weapons with an awareness that said weapons would result in civilian as well as enemy casualties (not to mention that the use of poison weapons was already considered a war crime following the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907). Steve's idea that handing over the formulas in Doctor Poison's notebook to his superiors (as opposed to, you know, destroying them) would somehow help stop the Germans and not inspire the Allies to develop these weapons themselves is, at the very least, an incredibly naive attitude for a supposedly worldly, experience-hardened military man. While it makes perfect sense that Steve wouldn't detail the Allies' use of chemical weaponry to Diana — it's hard to imagine either "they did it first" or "all's fair in love and war" going over all that well with her — it's a bombshell that the film sits on but never deploys, even when it might have been in its own best interest.

[...]

Of course, the motivation for pushing back Wonder Woman's origin story timeline was probably a mix of wanting to maintain a safe distance from Captain America and thinking that WWI better suited some of their narrative goals. But while Wonder Woman does do things here and there to justify the switch from the canonical comic book origin story timeline, one can still imagine that the film missed out on opportunities to do a whole lot more.
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Those interested in the film story of a real-life WWI anti-war feminist might want to check out 2014's Testament of Youth. (Which, for the geek crowd, just happens to star Lara Croft, a Throne Gamer, a Kingsman, and a Merlin, not to mention a cameo by Peggy Carter herself.)

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Unlike Diana, who apparently spends zero time of the weeks-long sail between the Mediterranean waters outside Greece and London actually quizzing Steve about world history, Testament of Youth's Vera Brittain (a real person) craves learning first and foremost, and then volunteers to become a nurse just behind the front lines during the War, and becomes an activist for peace afterwards (even opposing British entry into WWII, very Edith Keeler-like). The movie isn't a masterpiece, but it's quite good, one of the most emotionally harrowing PG-13 films I've ever seen, and it has an absolutely brilliant scene exploring PTSD around its midpoint that makes the whole thing worth it. It's also very much a WWI movie that, unlike Wonder Woman, actively explores the moral murkiness of the conflict, and in which not a shot is seen fired.

There's been a lot of talk about how Wonder Woman gives girls and young women a role model to look up to. And I for one am all for more women-centric action blockbusters. But if every person who saw Wonder Woman were also to see Testament of Youth, and especially every child, the world might just be a somewhat more humane place.

 

Finally got around to seeing it. Excellent movie all round, very enjoyable and I hope for more from this director in the future.

The only real criticism I have is with the third act and it's a fairly minor one in that I didn't really buy David Thewlis as the God of War. I mean I get where they were going with the true villain being a behind the scenes manipulator inciting and encouraging conflict rather than leading from the front as it were. I just think as a villain in his own right, he was rather overshadowed by Dr. Poison and the General.
Nothing against Thewlis as an actor, but I think they could have done with more of a chameleon who could really sell that transformation.

On the positive side, I really liked that unlike the other entries in the DC movieverse, this one had some real character depth, well thought out themes and interesting, three dimensional characters. There was plenty of levity, but it never felt cheap. There was plenty of gravitas, but it never got maudlin. Given the subject matter the tone was shockingly well balanced.
The Amazons were awesome and not in a superficial "badass warrior women" way. They felt like real people with internal lives, not just eye candy squeezed into improbably skimpy armour, as such characters are more often portrayed. A very strong and coherent feminist message that never restored to belittling or mocking the "less fairer sex" to make it's point.

Also, it's a small thing but I really appreciated that they didn't smack the audience over the head with the poetic irony of Diana crossing no man's land and trusted the audience to make the connection on their own. Which is part of what really makes this so much better that it's DC stablemates: it has respect for it's audience and doesn't treat them like morons with ADHD.

 

Saw this on Facebook and made me smile



I'm not knocking Wonder Woman at all, but I've also noticed some of the reviews are making out like it's the first female led action movie ever or something. I mean they're hardly cinematic classics, but it was only a few months ago the sixth Resident Evil movie came out for example. I suppose this is for familes and kids can see it though, but just saying that's not how some of them paint it.

 

Saying again from the other thread which wasn't the review thread (I was wondering where the poll was!), I really liked Wonder Woman. I loved how sweet and pure and innocent Diana was, but at the same time she never came across as stupid.

And Ares was 100% right about us.

 

Uh, I'm not finding this quote anywhere on an nytimes.com search...

 

^ Never believe random quotes on the internet. As Ghandi once said.

 

That so-called NYTimes quote is grammatically suspect, anyway, with its use of "woman."

 

Nah, their point is well-taken. If you wanted to try to counter it, though, while Cameron is your only go-to director his first Terminator film would provide a better example.