Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

Bashir:
"Who do you answer to?"
Sloan:
"The same people you do...Starfleet"

"We are another branch of Starfleet intelligence"

"We are an autonomous department"

Sisko:
"I did some checking with Starfleet Command about section 31...They wouldn't confirm their existence....nor would they deny their existence"
Kira:
"Sounds like a cover up"
Odo:
"It makes sense that Starfleet would have their own bla bla bla,"

So Starfleet command protects section 31.

And then there's Admiral Ross, who carried out a critical s31 mission for them.

 

Which is more or less the same thing as being separate from Starfleet.

Actually, Odo says "the Federation" not Starfleet.

Well, yeah. Section 31 blackmails enough key officers in Starfleet Command to protect them. When you've found yourself in the backpocket of a criminal organization that has you by the balls, you're going to do your damndest to make sure they don't squeeze.

 

Wow and The Federation or Starfleet can't shut them down. They must have a hell of a lot of dirt on people.

 

I'm trying to think of some good 24th century blackmail bate. Admiral Ross does kinda have that ashamed look on his face a lot. What are Admiral Necheyev's weaknesses?

 

It'd have to be something pretty huge if Starfleet or the Federation can't shut them down. They're part of the charter, were there at the birth of the Federation so who knows?

 

Section 31 pre-dated the Federation, as they were active as early as the 2150s. Possibly earlier.

The take I've always had on them is that at best they are a rogue agency of Starfleet that is considered to be a "we neither confirm, nor deny" sort of organization by many of the higher-ups; and at worst, is a terrorist organization that justifies their actions by pointing to vague language in the Starfleet Charter as a way to recruit Starfleet officers to do their dirty work.

 

OK a lousy fanwanky idea....

OK you will hate me for saying this.

What it originally was something more mundane like an Earth based agency like the CIA that adapted to Starfleet and aliens and such? Possibly even the CIA, although I toyed with the idea that it was a older version of Section 1 from LFN.

 

Perhaps their child had illegal gene therapy to save him from a terminal illness.

 

What resources could you deprive them of?

 

In TUC, the admirals wondered if they should "mothball" dismantle Starfleet, just because they were considering making peace with the Klingons. Then another one replied if they did, they would be totally defenseless against aggressors, as if it were a simple afterthought.

Obviously it must be the military then, but the thinking of dismantling Starfleet--then realizing 'wait we would be defenseless if we did' --seems oddly naïve.

My take---I don't think Section31 is necessarily a dirty/evil organization, just a leftover from the past, that went underground. They don't tamper with Federation democracy or freedoms, just threats from the outside. Although they probably do have a lot of dirt on higher ups.

Although you have to wonder where were they when admiral Leyton tried to take over earth...

 

If Leyton's goals lined up with some of their own, why interfere?

 

S31's probably didn't see Leyton as having a chance of success, even if he briefly gained control, Starfleet would have removed him soon after. S31 didn't need to do anything, Layton wasn't a credible threat.

I never have understood how he thought he'd stay in power more than a few days.

 

Section 31 is the CIA. Whatever you think about one, you likely think about the other.

 

Here's another quote that I haven't seen used yet.

NECHAYEV: "Of course you had a choice. You could've taken the opportunity to rid the Federation of a mortal enemy, one that has killed tens of thousands of innocent people, and which may kill even more."

PICARD: "No one is more aware of the danger than I am. But I am also bound by my oath and my conscience to uphold certain principles. And I will not sacrifice them in order to...

NECHAYEV: "Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens, not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future, an opportunity to destroy the Borg, you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?"

(Picard stands at attention, and says with emphasis "Yes, sir!" with a hint of defiant sarcasm, and maybe a small dash of moral superiority)

And then the next time Picard meets Nechayev, he bakes her-her favorite cupcakes in an effort to butter her up. It works.

 

I would say that Picard's "Yes Sir" was the response of a subordinate who had just been dressed down. There was no defiant or moral superiority, the Admiral made clear to Picard that Picard had screwed up and hadn't fulfilled his duty.

We see this realization in Picard later in First Contact when he speaks of worlds being assimulated and the Federation being forced back by the Borg. I believe that a substancial part of Picard rage against the Borg is the fact that he pasted on the golden opportunity to deminish them.

That would be the meeting where Nechayev tells Picard that if he has eithical problems with carrying out a mission she was prepare to releave him as Captain of the Enterprise.

Really don't see S31 as intelligence gathering service for the Federation. S31 isn't the CIA.

 

Anyone that has paid any attention to the world knows the CIA is a bit more than a "intelligence gathering service".

 

He makes her cupcakes(or canapés) in the episode "Journey's End." In the conversation I quoted, he disagrees with her. He's trying to explain and she cuts him off. Then he says "Yesss..Sirrr.."

 

No, because the CIA is a legal organization, with a clearly defined chain of command, and which is responsible to its superiors in the United States government.

I'm not saying the CIA is perfect, but it's a legitimate governmental organization. It (mostly) follows the law and abides by the Constitution. It has to justify its existence and budget. It reports to the President.

Section 31 has none of these restrictions. It reports to no one, it justifies itself to no one, it acts on behalf of no one (but itself). Section 31 literally does WHATEVER IT WANTS. That's nothing like the CIA.

And don't even try to tell me that the Federation "needs" organizations like Section 31. It doesn't. Military intelligence is the sole purview of Starfleet Intelligence; on the civilian side, the Federation Security Agency. Simply put: If those two organizations can't do it, it doesn't deserve to be done.

There is NO place in a free and democratic society for organizations that operate outside the law. Those organizations simply have no right to exist.

 

In addition to the above, the main antagonist in Star Trek Beyond was a former MACO, an ex-military officer. Evidently, Star Trek has a chip on its shoulder against military in general.

Strange, considering how much Starfleet tries to emulate a military force otherwise. It's as if its purpose is deception:

Warfare is the Way of deception… if able, appear unable; if active, appear inactive; if near, appear far; if far, appear near… attack where your enemies are not prepared; go to where they do not expect.

―Sun Tzu, "The Art of War".​

Unless, of course, Star Trek really does think of military as "annoying medieval leftovers".

 

In the case of the Dominion War, yes the Federation very much needed S31 and their methods.

Maybe the Council doesn't need S31, but the Federation does.

Ultimately, what serve to best interests of the people in the Federation is what deserves to be done.

We have no evidence that either of those organizations are particularly effective.

S31 act to protect and continue the Federation, which we saw them do. When do we see S31 acting primarily on behalf of themselves?