Tomorrow is Yesterday

Yes.

To the NuTrek timeline unless they also dimension hop to their own timeline.

Not sure how that changes anything.

 

There are indications that that there's a similar past, certainly. However, differences even in the first film from general technology, Stardate usage and even characters' birth dates (I'm looking at YOU, Chekov) all add weight to the argument that this was a preexisting parallel universe. By the 3rd film even one of the writers (Simon Pegg) approached the project from this perspective.

As for the situation with the two Kirks; if ShatKirk is going to be drawn into Pinekirk's timeline automatically, doesn't that mean that Pine's is the dominant and overriding reality? Sort of like layer of paint getting covered up by a new layer after a certain point - the original is still there, just buried

If they would be drawn into the new Kelvin timeline regardless, doesn't it mean that the they WILL be? (Spock's calculations were only for time travel, after all)
And won't that create major changes the the events of the Prime timeline?

 

I'm looking at it like Nero's presence shunts everything into the NuTrek timeline. So yeah, like the paint analogy, the prime timeline is still there and still accessible, but it's not the default one anymore. Now if someone from Nero's future with a much more powerful ship arrives and destroys his ship before he has a chance to do anything and then returns to their own time without changing anything, then that would make the prime timeline the default again, although the NuTrek timeline would still exist.

I do agree that the NuTrek shows changes from PrimeTrek that could not possibly be accounted for by the appearance of Nero. For example, the appearance of the Klingons. I took that and other changes (like the Chekov discrepancies) as artistic choices with the timeline still supposed to be the prime one. But I can see how those changes would make one want to consider it a different pre-existing universe.

 

I disagree. NuTrek wouldn't exist any longer, if Nero's ship was blown up before he destroyed the Kelvin. The timeline would have new events from that point onward recorded on it, which would be very similar to Prime Timeline, but not quite. I agree that Prime Universe is overlayed by NuTrek, even though I don't like it.

As far as 1986, I think that until the timeline is changed (by NuTrek ending up in 1986 SF) everything would be as it was... if viewing thru, say, the Guardian, you would see the TOS crew saving whales, then disappearing. I believe that they would not re-appear, since at this point they are physical artifacts/remnants from the old timeline still visible in 1986, but that they would disappear into a void.

The second NuTrek appears in 1986, they are technically creating a new timeline from that point onward that includes their actions. The time artifact/remnant TOS crew is still there. NuTrek's presence (even before blatant interference) should then allow the BoP to come out in the new 23rd century's present.

Its possible, then, that the Probe is still stopped by the TOS crew, while the NuTrek crew and their enterprise is still out in the galaxy somewhere far away. The TOS crew in its 1986 entirety would then be returning to a world they have never seen before, but could continue their adventures in the future of the Kelvinverse.

Interesting.

 

While a single dominant timeline model does make a lot of sense (with artefacts from earlier incarnations sometimes surviving on in the subsequent realities) the fact of the matter is that there are one or more confirmed occurrences of predestination paradoxes (AKA time loops). I really don't see how a "loop" can exist in single timeline model.

 

As far as 1986, I think that until the timeline is changed (by NuTrek ending up in 1986 SF) everything would be as it was... if viewing thru, say, the Guardian, you would see the TOS crew saving whales, then disappearing. I believe that they would not re-appear, since at this point they are physical artifacts/remnants from the old timeline still visible in 1986, but that they would disappear into a void.

The second NuTrek appears in 1986, they are technically creating a new timeline from that point onward that includes their actions. The time artifact/remnant TOS crew is still there. NuTrek's presence (even before blatant interference) should then allow the BoP to come out in the new 23rd century's present.

Its possible, then, that the Probe is still stopped by the TOS crew, while the NuTrek crew and their enterprise is still out in the galaxy somewhere far away. The TOS crew in its 1986 entirety would then be returning to a world they have never seen before, but could continue their adventures in the future of the Kelvinverse.

Interesting. [/QUOTE]

I was proceeding with the idea that timelines once created are never destroyed such that after Nero's attack, ShatKirk, NimoySpock and the rest of Prime Trek still exists in parallel to NuTrek, it's just no longer as easy to get to. Otherwise, when Nero attacks, Prime Trek disappears forever unless someone undoes the changes.

 

I believe that each universe has one timeline, that can not be splintered, but only rewritten. Each Universe in the Multiverse has a singular timeline. The Multiverse could still have infinite Universes, but they are still not the same as the timeline of each singular Universe. So, in this concept, The Mirror Universe isn't a split from history creating a 2nd Universe; its an alternate reality completely. (although, if the show were to insist on time travel creating actual physically split universes, then I like the idea that City created Mirror, Mirror.)

I've never believed in predestination paradoxes. I've always rationalized that there is an unseen first timeline, that causes the loop due to some action or outside interference. We just pick up watching the episode after we are already n iterations into the loop. Something that only exists because it caused itself hurts my brain, is logically impossible (no matter what crazy math might say), and is also why I have such a problem with this seasons The Flash lol.

 

I sympathise with the headache caused by time loops. However, in my mind it is just a result of the universe consolidating the affects of time travellers in as efficient manner as possible.

The alternative is that time travellers keep repeating the same actions ad infinitum, laying down new timelines in the same spot forever. That's gonna leave some wear & tear on the fabric of reality.

Then the replaced timeline not only exists in a submerged state, but also in a manner where is effectively cut off from its own history, past a certain point. What right does the old timeline have to continue existing?

 

That's how parallel realities have been portrayed with the possible exception of "Parallels". Splinter timelines are just so in fashion now that everything gets translated into that...

 

I agree the Mirror universe is its own independent universe. The existence of independent universes does not preclude there also being split off timelines.

Oh I'm with you here. I hate time paradoxes. In Somewhere in Time, old Elise gives Richard a pocket watch, which he then gives to her back in 1912 so that she can give it to him again in 1980. Like you, I'm like okay, there had to be a First Time Through, so what happened then? Maybe someone else gave the watch to Elise who then gave it to Richard so he could give it to her.

 

I've said people from the "cut off" timeline can go freely back to their past. Getting back to their timeline isn't as easy but still possible as I believe it's possible to travel between dimensions as well. Your final question is strange. What right would the timeline have to exist? I thought we were discussing science or science fiction. Either something exists or it doesn't. What right do electrons have to exist?

But if the timeline has to justify its existence, there are the untold trillions of sentient beings living in that timeline that would like to go on doing so.

 

Thats where I'll... agree to disagree. I don't think time travel can create a whole new physical Universe spot that can possibly coexist. Its the same canvas, with different events on them. Same physical space.

Glad to see we agree on the "first time through" part, though. Like in Terminator, the original John Connor must have had a different father, and became a leader naturally. He must have looked different, before Kyle Reese became his father. The guidance from the future kept him on his path, regardless of his genetics.

 

Were the Mirror universe and "the Borg are everywhere" universe also overlayed?

The Abrams universe is just another alternate universe and doesn't destroy all other universes simply by existing.

 

Yeah, that was somewhat flowery language of mine. What I meant was that in this setup, the Prime timeline no longer has it's own distinct past beyond a certain point, since it is now being used dominantly by the Kelvin timeline.
In an efficient universe, there is simply no need for the old timeline to keep existing - the dominant Kelvin timeline has all the influence.

This is my feeling also - each universe will maintain its predetermined state regardless of the actions of insignificant little time travellers

 

TNG "Parallels" would seem to suggest that alternate timelines retain their individual existences side-by-side in a multiverse.

 

Starting with Mirror Mirror, TOS had different kinds of parallel realities going on, with different natures. They'd already shown a side-by-side pair of universes, one matter and the other anti-matter, in Alternative Factor. That would seem to limit the number of universes to two. Then In Mirror Mirror, our reality had another "opposite", in which polarity of particles has nothing to do with it.
===========
If they'd waited several years and then done MM, we might have cried foul, but MM happens so early that we just go with it, and figure there are ways for there to be two different kinds of "opposite" universes at the same time. after all, the whole damn thing is pretty out there in the first place, we don't expect to grasp it like a Starfleet physicist.
-----------------------
So when Next Gen's Parallels came along, I didn't attempt to work its kind of splinter (?)multiverse into the larger scheme of all duplicate universes from all of Trek. I thought, "Oh. Here is yet another set of other infinite universe(s), in addition to the kinds in AF and MM. Somehow they all exist but are not part of one single system."

 

That situation is even more bizarre though, since the theory suggested by Data suggests that's it's people's everyday decisions (not even time travellers!) that cause the various timeline splits. People's decisions are not based on random chance, they are based on their experiences...which in turn are based on other experiences...and others, and past events and so on. People's actions are, if properly measured, entirely predictable. Why on earth should predictable patterns create alternate timelines, since the actions that allegedly caused those timelines were never going to happen in the first place!

 

The premise of "Parallels" is basically the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.

 

Doesn't mean it makes any sense as a theory!
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-9-weirdest-implications-of-the-many-worlds-interpre-1692618056

 

To me, the most interesting implication is #7, Plaga's paper.