Is Deep Space Nine racist?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Destructor, Sep 9, 2016.

  1. Destructor

    Destructor Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Location:
    Melbourne, VIC
    A friend (well, twitter-friend I guess) was up to S3 of DS9 and declared he thinks the show is racist.

    I disagreed *generally* but he made some excellent points, many of which I agree with. I storify'd the dialogue (he's James, I am Destructor):

    https://storify.com/Destructor/is-deep-space-nine-racist

    I then bought this up in a closed Facebook group where a longer-form discussion broke out. There were many interesting responses, and I've curated a few (anonymously, because it is a private group, and I hope they don't mind me sharing some of their very interesting thoughts):

    A really great comment here with quotes right from the actors themselves!
    And then, finally, this largely off-topic quote from me, which I think is quite interesting and probably deserves a thread all to itself...
    There was a lot more content but this is sort of a 'skipping stone' eye-view of the discussion, and I thought it might be interesting to throw the discussion to the BBS and see if it sparked any other interesting perspectives- would love to hear them.
     
    Go-Captain likes this.
  2. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2016
    Location:
    London
    Star Trek is generally Terrancentric for obvious reasons, its fictional and written by humans but racism as we define it today? I say no when it comes to DS9.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
  3. Tosk

    Tosk Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2001
    Location:
    On the run.
    Is the show racist? No.

    Are some of the characters speciest? Maybe, yeah.
     
  4. NaughtyTrekkie

    NaughtyTrekkie Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2016
    technically, the proper terms should be specism/specist
     
    Qonundrum and elamigodemiamiga like this.
  5. CommanderTrip

    CommanderTrip Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2003
    Location:
    Baltar's Mind
    IS it just me or is anyone else find it ironic in someone asking if the first trek series to feature an african american captain is racist?

    No, deep space nine is not racist. Characters in the show as described in the OP's post behaved in ways in which demonstrate that they perceive all members of a species to behave stereotypically. However, such was not the case for all members of a species. (ex. Nog, a ferengi, joining starfleet. Another ex. Odo, a changeling, not having a genocidal attitude towards any lifeform that isn't goo/playdough-like in physiology)
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
  6. SPCTRE

    SPCTRE Badass Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2008
    Location:
    SPCTRE
    That's not how the show is portraying Garak at all.
     
    ichab and Shaka Zulu like this.
  7. OtherGene

    OtherGene Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2016
    Location:
    Manchester & Salford CID, 1973
    If Avery says it isn't then that's good enough for me. Sure, within the Trek universe, Star fleet appears very Earth centric as nearly every Captain we meet appears to be human and pretty much all the ships are named after Earth things but I think that's more to do with making the TV show accessible and keeping the costs down.
     
  8. NaughtyTrekkie

    NaughtyTrekkie Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2016
    I don't know. How many times Sisko orders fried chicken at the replimat?

    ps. we had african american captain in TNG season 2 (contagion). also the Saratoga captain (ST IV) was a black woman.
     
  9. rRico

    rRico Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2016
    And Clark Terrell in TWOK.
     
    somebuddyX likes this.
  10. NaughtyTrekkie

    NaughtyTrekkie Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2016
    if I remember exactly, there was a Starbase commanded by an african american in TOS
     
    Shaka Zulu and rRico like this.
  11. rRico

    rRico Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2016
    Not to forget the science-Wunderkind Richard Daystrom.
     
    Shaka Zulu, Qonundrum and Jacob Bos like this.
  12. Terok Nor

    Terok Nor Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2015
    Location:
    Rigel VII
    Star Trek has never been racist. Sexist on the other hand...
     
  13. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Location:
    Bad Thoughts
    Of course! The first show that allowed its lead to have a racial identity would be racist! :brickwall:

    The argument can always be made that the show dealt with difficult topics well or poorly can of course be made. I think some of the people in the twitter conversation make some excellent points.

    That said, many of the racial/species stereotypes are not themselves rooted in DS9. Indeed, TNG often judged that one culture or other showed an irrational predisposition to intolerance that we, the Federation (mostly white humans), don't exhibit. DS9 walked back those attitudes, making belonging to a specific culture, be it Ferengi, Klingon, Bajoran, African-American, Irish-Asian, ..., not only legitimate, but possibly compatible with other identities.
     
  14. SpaceLama

    SpaceLama Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    I do think Klingons were steriotyped really badly at some points in DS9.

    But others such as the Klingon lawyer went against this.

    Bajorans and their religion also became like that in later seasons maybe.

    Cardassians were handled a bit better.
     
  15. NaughtyTrekkie

    NaughtyTrekkie Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2016
    the "extremitation" of characters' peculiaities over a serie arc is a common thing
     
  16. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    Confederation of Earth
    *ahemCODEOFHONORahem*
     
  17. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell memelord Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2001
    Location:
    space
    A failing of most Trek (and, indeed, sci-fi/fantasy franchises in general) has been that, while humans are allowed a full variety of emotions, attitudes, and cultural traits, non-human species are typically reduced to a handful of specific traits from which there is not much variation.

    So Klingons are a warrior culture, Ferengi are greedy misogynists, Cardassians are paranoid fascists, and so on. We get to see individual members of those species defying the stereotypes, but they're the exceptions that prove the rule.

    That said, out of all Trek series, DS9 did the best job of layering in that complexity. TOS, TNG, and VOY were far more guilty of "planet of hats" syndrome, so this seems like a particularly specious accusation against DS9.

    I would also say that asking whether a particular show is racist probably misses the point. We live in a racist culture and the products of that culture inevitably reflect that racism. Whatever its faults, Star Trek has always been about overcoming those bigotries and learning to work together harmoniously. It has certainly screwed up from time to time and reinforced stereotypes rather than undermining and dismantling them, but the central message is explicitly anti-racist.
     
    Shaka Zulu, Grendelsbayne and Sci like this.
  18. Triskelion

    Triskelion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    All I'm sayin' is...
    No Insectoid bathrooms.

    What's up with that?
     
    Sci likes this.
  19. UssGlenn

    UssGlenn Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Location:
    New Orleans, LA
    The thing is, what happens when you give a species full variety of traits? They turn into humans with funny foreheads. They have to be different to be alien, so the can't be just like humans. These are different species after all. Think about earth species, are we speciesist because we can tell that cats and dogs have different behavioral norms?
     
    ELURIA, Shaka Zulu and rRico like this.
  20. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell memelord Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2001
    Location:
    space
    As Kirk put it: "everybody's human." ;)