VOY: Acts of Contrition Excerpt (Spoilers, Obviously)

How did my simple expression of surprise that a ST author (not to mention a woman ST author) would "work blue" on a board that's completely visible to the non-subscribing public turn into a discussion of army creole (and from the sound of it, probably also ghetto creole)?

I could repeat the "two Italian men on a bus" joke (just do a Google search on the phrase), or the one about Uncle Lars telling a war story about Fokkers and Messerschmitts (just search on the two key words), but that would add ethnic humor to the rather unsavory stew we're brewing on this thread.

 

Because we're all awesome?

 

"Ghetto?" Where did that come from?

 

Because we're all fucking awesome? (Fixed that for you!)

Also, I'm curious what Kirsten (MFing) Beyer being a woman has to do with anything...

 

Me too.

I know it is not possible that in this day and age anyone would consider it unladylike for a woman to use explicit language in public.

Right?

Because fuck that shit.

Whenever I speak or write, I consider my audience. There are words I don't say around my daughter...tempted as I am at times. Because she's five. Five year olds don't get to use our most powerful words because they aren't capable of distinguishing between appropriate and inappropriate usage of them. As soon as she shows that capability, it will be up to her which words she uses to express herself and in what context. I also don't use those words around her young friends. Why make any other parent's job harder than it already is?

When I'm writing a novel, I use words deemed appropriate by my editor/licensor. While there have certainly been times when I would have liked to see Chakotay turn to Janeway and say, "Are you fucking kidding me?" a usage like that would take the reader out of the story. I go a little farther with some of my choices than we might have seen on television, but no so far that we could never imagine having seen it.

When I'm doing a podcast, I always ask the hosts in advance what the "rating" is for their audience. In casual speech with other adults, I don't censor myself at all. Ask anyone who has ever spoken to me for any length of time, particularly on a controversial subject. If the hosts indicate that youngsters listen regularly, I watch my language. When I am in someone else's house and they have ground rules, for whatever reason, I try to respect them. That's called being polite.

Here...where I am engaged in what I think of as a very long conversation with my readers, most of whom express themselves however they goddamn well please?

Are you fucking kidding me?


KMFB

 

Kirsten for President!!!

When i subscribed to this forums i had no idea that the authors are here taking time to actually talk to us and listen all the things we say :O Because each minute they spend here with us is time taken from their life, time they could spend with family or writing

So! we love you all because you exist

 

Kirsten, Thanks! Appreciate you and all you do. You are a BAMF

 

It comes from

At least in my experience, if somebody starts slurring and/or abbreviating "mother-fucker," and isn't both financially impoverished and a member of an ethnic minority, it comes off rather like Olivia Landon Clemens' attempt at swearing, of which her husband (better known as "Mark Twain") reputedly declared that she had "the words but not the music." In short, it comes off as artificial, if not as an attempt to poke fun at how poor people of ethnic minorities talk.

As to "working blue" on an unrestricted ST board, well, on most of the other boards I'm on, even in sections only visible to registered members (which this isn't), any variation on the "seven words you can never say on television" (and a few other impolite words) would be deleted by the autocensor with extreme prejudice (and anybody successfully circumventing the autocensor would be deleted by the mods with extreme prejudice). Star Trek has always had a reputation for being (as the late Douglas Adams would say) "mostly harmless." The most explicit sex scenes I've encountered in the bawdiest ST books (ignoring fanzines for the moment) pale in comparison to, say, the sex scenes in David Gerrold's When HARLIE Was One (which is about the only work of fiction I can recall ever reading that even has explicit sex scenes). Seeing variations on "mother fucker" on a board that Ms. Beyer's 5-year-old daughter might be reading rather soon (and which might prompt some awkward questions were she forbidden to do so) is rather a shock.

And at 52, with a typical WASP upbringing, I am just old enough that encountering a woman "working blue" in a place where I don't expect anybody to be doing so just adds to the surprise. (And if you don't like it, well, fuck you, and everybody who even looks like you, and the horse you rode in on, too.)

(And let us not forget that "working blue" is hardly necessary even in stand-up comedy: Steve Martin rarely gets very blue, and as to Bob Newhart, well, in his stand-up routines, "damn" has shock-value.)

 

I think that assumption borders on racial and class profiling. As it happens, the speakers were African-American, but I have no information on their economic status. And the use of "ghetto" is rather bizarre. I'm not aware of any part of Cincinnati that's considered a ghetto. The city isn't as racially integrated as it could be, but it's much more so than it was decades ago.

You know what? I think children are a lot less bothered by profanity than people from older generations. A while back I was in my local park and there was a group of grade-school boys playing on the slides and climbing bars, and they were spewing profanity that would make a sailor blush. It's a generational thing -- that language just isn't a big deal to younger generations.

Which was somewhat the point of my bus anecdote -- that whereas I was raised to think of "hell" as a mild curse and "M-F" as the worst obscenity I knew (to the point that even today I prefer not to say it in a public forum), these gentlemen from a different cultural background treated "M-F" as a casual, emotionally neutral sound and used "hell" when they actually wanted to curse. There are no absolutes. It varies among cultures and generations. In Elizabethan times, "golly" was a serious profanity because it's short for "God's body" and referring to God as a physical being was blasphemous. But by the 20th century, it had become an oath suitable for children, and today its use would be seen as a laughable affectation.

 

That is an accurate assessment.

 

So, let me understand this: You're allowed to write "fuck" on an open board that Kirsten's daughter may someday read, but you feel you have the right to comment negatively on the very same language choice by the child's own mother? A mother who, I hasten to add, picks and chooses words for a living? Whose ability to string words together has earned her the status of New York Times bestselling author? But you feel justified in judging her and her fucking language? Seriously?

 

She already let that genie out of the bottle in the first complete sentence of the first post. No criticism; just amazement that language that blue is allowed anywhere on TrekBBS other than maybe the Redshirt Lounge. And isn't shock value par for the course, when using coarse language literally, and the whole point of using it non-literally?

"Maybe we should substitute the word 'fuck' for the word 'kill' in all those movie cliches." -- George Carlin

 

I know I should let this go.

But I'm not going to.

I don't understand anyone expressing surprise, shock, or amazement at seeing the word "fuck" on this board. I mean, perhaps if this was your very first day and very first post, the word choice of my OP might have genuinely elicited that response. But I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

A quick search, just to make sure I wasn't losing my mind, came up with 200 recent instances of that word alone in less than 2 seconds. Scrolling quickly through those posts, I also found uses of, sometimes accompanied by discussion, of shit, piss, cunt, and of course, mother fucker. I didn't bother looking for damn or hell. I don' t have that kind of time.

Some of those uses came from other authors, some from readers.

I've been posting here with some regularity for five years or so. I was delighted to be christened Kirsten Mother Fucking Beyer here because while coarse, yes, the phrase when used in this manner carries with it a certain power. There aren't any other two words that when put together in this way, particularly as a "middle name" capture precisely the same sense. So much so that it is difficult to articulate all that this combination contains but at the same time, the intended meaning is instantaneously clear. As it was offered with love and respect, I accept and really cherish it. It also tickles me when I meet some of my fellow authors in public and they make a point of referring to me as "Kirsten Mother Fucking Beyer," also with love and respect.

So, to be absolutely clear, my choice to use that particular phrase in the original post was both a nod to my new middle name, which is quite dear to me, and an appropriate modifier for the noun "excerpt" in that I found the excerpt in question to be exceptionally, gobsmackingly long. For whatever reason, "mother fucking" were the first words that came to mind when I went searching for a modifier to capture my genuine surprise in the moment.

It did not occur to me that anyone would take offense, or be surprised to see me use that modifier, given the frequency with which I have seen words of similar power used here. Indeed, these days, when anyone around here fails to refer to me as Kirsten Mother Fucking Beyer, someone usually pipes in fairly quickly to remind them to use my full name. I chuckle to myself, and get on with my day. But even were this not the case, the number of times I have seen the word "fuck" or any of the others I listed above used here has left no doubt in my mind that such usages are common enough to go without comment.

There is, of course, nothing wrong with anyone expressing surprise when seeing a word they do not expect to see somewhere, nor is there anything wrong with then proceeding to make use of that word in any way they wish.

But let's be clear. I didn't let any genies out of any bottles. I did not set any precedent here. I merely continued to follow what has already been established.

What concerns me is for my choice to be singled out as inappropriate because of my gender. To call attention to my language and to indicate that the source of surprise was heightened because I am a woman strikes me as sexist. Perhaps the words would have elicited the same response had they come from a man. We'll never know now. But several subsequent posts remarking on my choices as a woman and a mother make it pretty clear that seeing a woman use coarse language, noting that it is unnecessary, in your opinion, forces me to conclude that your intention in pointing this out at all is to publically shame me for behaving in a manner you feel is inappropriate, perhaps unprofessional, or at the very least, unnecessary.

To justify your position by using your age or background and then note that anyone in disagreement should feel free to "go fuck themselves" doesn't help. In fact, it adds insult to the original injury. It suggests that you don't care to hear from anyone who might take issue with your position. Yours are the last words on the subject that need be considered.

I find your position and your continued defense of it unacceptable. I'm just not going to be able to allow the arrangement of my reproductive organs to dictate or limit the words I use on a regular basis. I will also not hesitate to discuss this sad reality with my daughter long before she has cause to read the source material for herself.

I am particularly sensitive to this as the mother of a daughter. I did not miss the insinuation that there might be something questionable in my choices as a mother, given my decision to express myself here in the same manner that many male posters do. Rest assured, I will prepare her to face much worse than careless, ignorant words. I am all too aware that this is my responsibility; an unfortunate fact this exchange has made all too clear.

I expect the conversation to go something like this:

"Yes, my love, there are people in this world who will attempt to make you doubt yourself because they are threatened by women who dare to demand parity with men in every way. They will try to belittle you. They will try to shame you. They will question your integrity and your motives. They will call you names. They will insist that you are at fault for the limits of their imagination. When you encounter such people, you have my blessing to suggest that they drink deeply from a steaming hot cup of shut the fuck up."

KMFB

 

^Fuck yeah!

 

Ladies and Gentlemen: Kirsten Mother Fucking Beyer.

Can I get a round of applause?

 

Applause.......Applause...... Why is there no clapping emoji?

 

- 11 till the book comes out!!! I only wish i could order paper books but I DON'T HAVE SPACE!!! The best part is i will have it right away after release XD .

 

This has certainly turned into an intriguing off-topic conversation and I would like to take a minute to add my two cents.

I do not swear and I often feel rather uncomfortable around others who openly use coarse language. Personally, I find that kind of language to be offensive and unprofessional. Fortunately for me, the majority of people I associate with are aware of my standards and are careful in the words they choose to use when I'm around. And that is something I greatly appreciate.

That said, online forums are a completely different matter because you have no way of knowing who will be reading your comments. Kirsten, or anyone else for that matter, doesn't know who their audience is. They don't know, for example, that I'm reading what they write and what type of language I consider to be acceptable. So they don't know if they should speak differently than they usually do. And when speaking to such a large, general audience, I don't expect them to censor their language just for me. So unless there are specific rules on the site regarding language, it seems to me that people can speak as they feel is appropriate, especially if the precedent for the level of acceptable language has already been established, as has in this case.

From my perspective, it then becomes the reader's decision if they want to read or not. When I stumbled across this site, I quickly learned the type of language to expect here. Do I like it? Not really. But I realize that everyone is speaking using the words they feel comfortable with and I can still enjoy the rest of the content of what is being said. I like that this is a place where the authors come to share news and insight with fans of the books. I absolutely love Kirsten Beyer's books and I love that she comes on here to discuss her books. I feel it gives even greater depth to her work. I would rather her stay on here and continue to provide that insight, using the language she feels expresses her meaning best, than to insult her and have her stop posting. But if someone else is not comfortable with the language, they could just as easily stop reading.

Back on topic... I am very much looking forward to the upcoming release of Acts of Contrition and reading the reviews and comments from people here. Can't wait to see what new developments and adventures Kirsten has come up with for Voyager! From the available excerpt, it looks like another fantastic read.

 

I've gotten used to the idea that most people today use profanities far more casually than I do, and I don't think it's wrong, but I do find it strange, because I can't help thinking of the words literally. I mean, how did a phrase meaning "copulate with you" come to be an insult or chastisement rather than a friendly invitation? Unless it was originally meant as an implicit rape threat, which is rather disturbing. Although perhaps it arose more from Western society's perception of sex as something shameful or dirty, so that a frank sexual proposition, particularly one in "vulgar" Anglo-Saxon, was seen as profane and shocking. In which case today's tendency to use the word more casually, without malicious intent, could reflect the fact that those old sexual hangups are no longer so prevalent. Although it seems that if sexual stigmas were removed entirely, the word would no longer work as a curse at all. (Which is why the sexually liberated Strider society of my novel Only Superhuman only uses the word literally as a verb for sexual intercourse and employs different words to curse with.)

Still, I have trouble grasping how a phrase that literally alleges someone to be in an incestuous relationship with their mother can be a compliment. Perhaps it's about neutralizing the negative impact of the term -- taking something that used to be a rather hideous accusation and defanging it by reducing it to a meaningless quartet of syllables or even choosing to interpret it as praise. But it still sounds pretty strange to a literal-minded sort like myself. And when I hear people using it as an actual insult rather than a joking compliment, it still grates quite harshly on me.

 

Applause both to Mr. Bennett and to "stormy." (I'd use the Army Creole expression, but . . . )

The range of stand-up comics I enjoy range from Bob Newhart (for whom, as I noted, "damn" constitutes working blue) to the late George Carlin (who had several whole routines built around impolite language, including not only "The Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television," but also "An Incomplete List of Impolite Words."

At any rate, my first post on this thread,

expressed no disapproval, only surprise. It was only later that I began to lament what struck me as rather pointless use of coarse language. (By contrast, consider Data's exclamation as the saucer section of Enterprise-D crashes in Generations: if he'd said "shit" under any other circumstances, or if he'd said anything else in those circumstances, it wouldn't have had the meaning, or the impact, it had.)