David A. Goodman, I have a question about killing.

Now I know why the professionals don't post here. When all you people have to say is shit like this, I don't blame them for taking off. I won't comment on my opinions of DAG or ENT, but you could all act like adults, if that isn't beyond your abilities and maybe they'd come back and you could have, oh I don't know, maybe reasonable conversations about the quality and direction of Enterprise. I welcome the chance to actually dsicuss things with those working there, but I gotta deal with a bunch of babies who just want to joke about killing B&B and constantly whine and bemoan the state of Trek...

 

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Explain exactly how this is trolling.

My opening post is a very serious discussion on the lack of dramatic tension, far more serious than the usual RAGER threads.

And that follow up post is to reinforce and reiterate that my initial post wholly refers to fictional characters, so that we don't have such an unfortunate misunderstanding from careless readers, as we did back in December.

That I call Berman and Braga talentless is a matter of opinion, supported by rational arguments throughout the thread. You are free to disagree with this, but that is not trolling.

My other comments throughout have been serious discussions of the problems afflicting ENT.

You shouldn't take your grudges from TNZ into your job moderating other fora.

It's just bad form, dear.

Now, I will kindly ask you to contribute something positive to this discussion, or else find another thread to make comments in.

Thank you.

-SR

 

While I think it could be phrased better,

This is a very legitimate question. I'm hoping Mr Goodman will answer.

 

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Ah, so the very fact that the original post very eloquently addresses the inherent problems of creating dramatic tension vis-a-vis the absence of any death in the show is immaterial.

It's your personal interpretation - in the absence of any evidence - which counts.

This is, shall we say, quite problematic, and indicative of an extreme bias.

And who is this "us" you believe I am thumbing my nose at by posting a very legitimate question?

No, it was quite legitimate from the get-go, unlike your poor rationalization for carrying a personal grudge over from TNZ, which is how I see this unwarranted attack.

And I will continue to post genuine, constructive posts of this nature addressing the many problems plaguing ENT, without regard for how you may interpret them, since you seem inclined to read malicious intent into anything I do.

After all, this is a discussion board, in case you forgot.

You really should look into this problem of yours as regards your grudge against me. It is unbecoming.

Why, a moderator with an agenda against a specific poster - this is not a good thing.

And I am informing you I will ignore your attempts at trolling me, and disregard your notice, because I have done nothing outside the bounds of propriety, your inaccurate and quite biased interpretation notwithstanding.

I've done nothing here that is even vaguely trolling. Although, I'd argue you have by attempting to undermine this thread.

Yes.

Indeed it does.

All too well.

But not how you'd hoped.

Ta.

-SR

 

Do you think that Mr. Goodman will answer a question from someone who suggested last month to go kick Mr. Goodman's bosses butts for him? (among other things) I don't think so.

 

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Oh, you want to discuss the "inherent problems of creating dramatic tension vis-a-vis the absence of any death in the show"? According to the thread title, you had said you wanted to discuss "killing" which is not necessarily the same thing.

No, I would agree that, as long as there no chance a character, full-time or guest, will die, there is little dramatic tension.

 

Storm Rucker, as someone completely unfamiliar with you aside from the untoward comments you made to David A. Goodman a month or so ago, this topic gave me concern as well. I don't know about your history in TNZ, but I do know your history in this forum, and because this topic is so closely related to the where you crossed the line in the past, I do have to wonder about your intentions. Comments like these are troublesome in relation to the comments you made a month ago:

T'Bonz actually acted quite graciously towards you--she could have made the call to close the thread and/or warn you. She didn't. All she did was ask that you tone down what you're saying. Aside from a few borderline comments in here, you actually do have a decent topic for conversation. There's no reason to cross the line if you actually want to discuss the topic.

All we're asking is that you tone it down. As Bonz said, please just keep the regulations in the ENT forum in mind. Thanks.

 

Well certainly, though parsing out those few lines above does make it appear worse than was intended.

Take, for example, this famous quote - "I have a dream of a day when all men will be judged by the content of their character, rather than the color of their skin."

Selecting key words could make this noble sentiment seem downright awful.

"I ... dream of a day when all men will be judged by ...the color of their skin."

But I'm renowned for my desire to please. So I will try to ensure that my words are clear enough even to the most careless reader or obtuse wit, much less a good ENT poster. I don't want to cause trouble.

I only took umbrage at the automatic interpretation that I was attempting to troll, when, as you say, this is a topic worthy of discussion. Danger and death, after all, should certainly be a part of the pioneer days of space exploration, otherwise we end up with the Love Boat in space. No one wants that.

-SR

 

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Oooh ooh - Love Boat in space...!!! When's it on?

Lith

 

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

Well that is certainly a noble first step.

Be sure to include that you not once, but twice, made disparaging remarks - including calling me a "bully" - in threads during my ban when I was unable to respond and defend myself.

Now, this is not a violation of board policy as far as I know, and certainly not outside the bounds of propriety for TNZ, but as Neroon regularly points out, it is certainly bad form and against unwritten etiquette to attack posters when they are sitting out a ban. One certainly expects a moderator who is unbiased to hold to this axiom.

Should you need refreshing, I can dig up the links in question, but I will trust your sense of honor not to deny these events.

I am more than willing to bury the hatchet, if you are. (And no, I certainly don't mean that as any kind of threat with a bladed weapon.)

Humbly,
-SR

 

Thanks, SR, it's appreciated.

On topic, I hope they'll eventually show a death as well. Since it's been so long in coming, it'll probably have a very strong affect on Archer. Since he is certainly a man of feeling, I imagine he'll take it quite hard, and it could be an interesting exploration of the dangers of space travel.

It's interesting to look at the lack of death in the context of contemporary times. Whereas Kirk had countless red shirts dying left and right, he barely batted an eye. At least, certainly, we didn't see him calling their parents and telling them, or pondering whether the dangers of space travel was too great. The original show was much more lighthearted than any show has been since.

Now, we have Enterprise, set earlier than TOS but being made almost 40 years later, and we have a much different atmosphere. It's more lighthearted in some ways (fewer social and controversial issues explored), but much more sombre in nature when it comes to things like death and risk.

 

On the contrary, episodes ranging from The Cage to Balance of Terror to even the troubled The Apple showed Kirk greatly torn by crew deaths. Probably Balance of Terror more than any, as it began with an interupted wedding he was performing amongst crewmen and ended with him (no jokes) having to console the widow.

I believe the "disposable redshirt" image is, like that of Kirk "bagging an alien woman a week" is more the creation of casual remembrance and folklore than the reality presented.

Kirk took crewmen's deaths very hard. And further, the likelihood of his own death and other crewmen in "Space Seed" when Khan threatened to kill them one at a time til they cooperated - and they resolutely and grimly refused to cooperate - was handled very seriously. It dealt with death and the concept of military professionalism in a profound and powerful way.

Contrast that with "The Communicator."

 

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

I certainly get the feeling that they are saving up the first "bucket kicking" in order to really do it justice.

Killing a nameless crew member may send Archer into a ready-room sulk / lock-in, but what would the audience think?? The impact on the viewers at home would be that much more if they knocked off a regular or semi-regular cast member...

I remember watching Buffy when Willows girlie bought the big one - I diodn't know it was coming, I cried... Now if Enterprise could pull that off, I would be very happy - and errr, sad.

You know what I mean.

Lith

 

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

If labelling B&B talentless is to be on the verge of warnable offense, I might remind you that you've called them quite a bit worse, and rightfully so, in the past.

They've shown no extraordinary talent with respect to Enterprise. Quite the contrary. The only talent they seem to possess is the ability to pull from the same bottomless pit of mediocrity that produced seven years of solid shit called Voyager.

This show has incredible potential - an attractive cast, terrific special effects, unmatched visual production values, and a great premise.

But so did Voyager. And it was squandered. By the same lousy writing and riskless production that's choking Enterprise.

And those two hacks are largely responsible for it.

-J

 

Re: David A. Goodman, I have a question about kill

I'll admit, I dropped a tear for Tara.

But just one.

That was a shocking scene, not one a ball-less series such as this is likely to produce. To watch as a character you've grown to love over years is just brutally... well, splattered, and the last thing she sees is her own blood drenching her girlfriend...

That was something that made you go, "DAMN YOU JOSS!" - but in a good way.

-J

 

You're right; my memory is foggy on TOS--it's been a few years since I've seen an episode. (And now I want to go back and rewatch 'Balance of Terror,' because I had completely forgotten the wedding/death!) But Kirk knew death was part of the risk of being in space, and he accepted it in that sense.

Whereas Archer is much less prepared to deal with such a loss. In my mind, he and Kirk are pretty much at opposite ends of the spectrum. Archer is a man of feeling; Kirk is a man of action. Kirk is representitive of the ideal man in the 60s; Archer of the "sensitive guy" of the 90s and OOs. That's not to say Kirk can't be sensitive and Archer can't be tough. But they both seem to be representitive of the ideal man at the time the shows were created.

Back to the subject of death in ENT, I wonder how different this conversation would be in Navokovich had dies in Strange New World. Would only one death in a year and a half be any more realistic? And, how does Phlox's advanced medical knowledge (advanced beyond humanity that is) help out? Is Phlox too much of a miracle worker? Hell, he found a cure for an evolutionary disease! Are Phlox's seemingly limitless skills too much of a deus ex machina?

 

^^
Interesting assessment. Let's just hope his reaction doesn't involve speeches about gazelles.

And before anyone corrects me, when I included "The Cage" up there I should have included Pike in tandem with Kirk, as he was equally flawed and torn regarding duty and death, and the loneliness of command.

Archer seems to think command is a camping trip.