Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of production'

[martok2112]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

The SO is a huge Tomb Raider fan (played the original trilogy and most of the later games) and she was disappointed with the reboot. Not because of story or characterization but because of the gameplay.

In her words, they made a "guy game" out of it (because of the lenghty stealth and TPS sequences) and completely neglected the actual puzzling and, you know, Tomb Raiding aspect of the franchise. Personally, I enjoyed the stealth and action segments, but I definitely agree that the few "tombs" were ridiculously short and way too easy to solve. Overall, it was still my favorite game of 2013, which was a big surprise to me.

From what I've heard from the devs talking about the sequel, they've taken that criticism to heart, which makes me very optimistic

Yeah, the tombs were very short.

I didn't so much mind the shooting and stealth action either. Not always one to like Quick Time Event sequences though.

The only QTE sequence that really bothered me was the rapids one with Lara impaled by spikes (through the chin, no less) as a failstate. It was just a grotesquely (and completely unecessary) graphic death screen that we had to watch several times over because we missed the timing.

A lot of times, it's not easy seeing one's heroes/heroines go through such horrific demises. In Resident Evil or dead Space it's kind of expected, because of the setting and motif...especially Dead Space. At least in Dead Space, you had the option of skipping the viewing of such gruesome deaths.

In previous Tomb Raiders, usually Lara's deaths were more "ragdoll" based...or very clean and quick deaths...with the exception of a few unique ones. (Midas, anyone? . )

But those were also T rated titles in the series. With the reboot, they wanted to go the M rated route. I guess it was a bit more M than some would've cared for.

If they gave you the option to skip such scenes, it would've probably been a bit more palatable.

 

[RoJoHen]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

See, I loved how gruesome the deaths were! They were so shocking. I remember the first time it, my reaction was an immediate, "Holy shit!" followed by nervous laughter. I was NOT expecting that.

 

[martok2112]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

See, I loved how gruesome the deaths were! They were so shocking. I remember the first time it, my reaction was an immediate, "Holy shit!" followed by nervous laughter. I was NOT expecting that.

Me too. Mind was blown.
And if you think about it, witnessing such an event can sometimes be an incentive to try and prevent from happening to Lara again if you have a vested "I must protect Lara from that " sentiment.

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Time for me to confess. I still haven't played the reboot. But from what I've seen, it feels like they gave her more character. I've always found the old Lara to be a physical construct and sort of comic-bookish in the sense that she never really felt real to me. She always seemed so exaggerated.

What they seem to have done with the reboot is keep her essence the same, but bring her back down to earth into something more personable and give her some growth and depth. She feels more like a real person now, not just some physical construct. She seems more on the level with Nathan Drake now, or even Joel and Ellie. (And yet another game I haven't yet played. Yes, I know... )

One area that really impressed me about the Tomb Raider reboot is how seriously they made big action moments matter. You're never left with the impression that everything is just an easy breeze for her. She doesn't do incredible stunts without breaking a sweat, or shrug off huge action set pieces as though she had everything under control. When she is parachuting and banging into tree branches, it hurts. And when she crashes onto the ground, she doesn't get up, say a one-liner and storm the bad guy compound like it was nothing. She is injured, fatigued and needs medical attention before she can do anything. And even that part is a painful hardship.

Most games (Heck, most movies for that matter) think that if they introduce a strong, action packed female character from the start than they have done your job. Unfortunately in most cases that's where the characterization ends. They're tough and capable, but that's it. A caricature. They don't have any character development and are mainly there for the player to experience the world through their own eyes instead of the character they're playing.

That recent Assassin's Creed trailer where our hero rescues a lady before she's beheaded also reinforces this trope. She can wield a sword too! I think that's about as much character development you'll get from her since this game is obviously not her story.

 

[martok2112]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Time for me to confess. I still haven't played the reboot. But from what I've seen, it feels like they gave her more character. I've always found the old Lara to be a physical construct and sort of comic-bookish in the sense that she never really felt real to me. She always seemed so exaggerated.

What they seem to have done with the reboot is keep her essence the same, but bring her back down to earth into something more personable and give her some growth and depth. She feels more like a real person now, not just some physical construct. She seems more on the level with Nathan Drake now, or even Joel and Ellie. (And yet another game I haven't yet played. Yes, I know... )

One area that really impressed me about the Tomb Raider reboot is how seriously they made big action moments matter. You're never left with the impression that everything is just an easy breeze for her. She doesn't do incredible stunts without breaking a sweat, or shrug off huge action set pieces as though she had everything under control. When she is parachuting and banging into tree branches, it hurts. And when she crashes onto the ground, she doesn't get up, say a one-liner and storm the bad guy compound like it was nothing. She is injured, fatigued and needs medical attention before she can do anything. And even that part is a painful hardship.

This I can agree with as well.

The reboot did a great job of accentuating the perils and pitfalls (sorry, Harry. ) of the actions Lara takes as she fights not only for her own personal survival, but that of her friends as well.

These are not actions that come naturally to the reboot Lara. Even if she has thought things through to maximize her chances of success, there are still dangers to simply implementing her plans, any of which could bring her plans to a grinding (and often final) halt in the blink of an eye.

But, as she becomes more successful in her actions, we also hear and see her developing small levels of confidence...to where she's even uttering almost wrathful swears of vengeance or impending doom for her enemies.

One of the things I loved about Ellen Ripley in the Alien movies...at least up through Alien 3...was that she always had this level of uncertainty and vulnerability at times...even minutely in Alien Resurrection. In Alien, she was merely fighting for her own survival, and those of her friends as best she could. She could not be everywhere at once, and even armed with only a flamethrower, she was not this tough warrior...she was just another person trying to live another day when the horror is unleashed.

In Aliens, she is asked to return to that hell, and strongly refuses, until she realizes that the only way to keep the nightmares from overwhelming her is to face her fears, and accede to the Company's request. She sees the horrors again, all too up close and personal. And when the Marines are being wiped out, one by one, she steels herself to charge back into hell. She couldn't save Parker and Lambert back on the Nostromo. But perhaps she could save at least some of the Marines. After she does, her experience, combined with the remaining firepower of the surviving squad, allows her to cope with those past horrors. She escapes, and this time, she did not escape alone.

However, Alien 3 puts her back where she started in this struggle. Hicks and Newt are killed, and Bishop is pretty much inoperable. On top of that, her new teammates are murderers and rapists...as well as a largely unsympathetic warden, and not all too bright warden's aide. Then her courage has to take a major leap further as she comes to a frightening revelation...and she doesn't have any pulse rifles, pistols, or APC's to help her deal with the immediate threat to her uneasily newfound allies.

Alien Resurrection has her being more of the action heroine caricature. She cracks jokes, she swaggers, she's tougher than the roughest of the space pirates she allies herself with. She's done and seen it all. Granted, she's a clone, some 200 years into the timeline's future, but she remembers. There are only a couple minor hints of vulnerability and humanity within her, despite the fact that we discover that she's now part alien as a result of the attempts to clone her.

 

[SPCTRE]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

One area that really impressed me about the Tomb Raider reboot is how seriously they made big action moments matter. You're never left with the impression that everything is just an easy breeze for her. She doesn't do incredible stunts without breaking a sweat, or shrug off huge action set pieces as though she had everything under control. When she is parachuting and banging into tree branches, it hurts. And when she crashes onto the ground, she doesn't get up, say a one-liner and storm the bad guy compound like it was nothing. She is injured, fatigued and needs medical attention before she can do anything. And even that part is a painful hardship.

Agreed, their character work is perhaps the strongest aspect of the reboot, which also makes her Badass Action Hero Moment towards the end of the game feel earned and believable, at least on a character development level.

 

[Reverend]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I just wished they'd pushed some more of that feeling into the gameplay. A hunger and injury system as well as a deeper crafting system would have gone a long way to enhancing the survivalist aspect if you actually needed to hunt to survive. Which says a lot coming from me since I generally hate crafting systems!

It also would have been nice if you didn't encounter quite so many human enemies until right near the end and most of the early game would have been more about stealth and ambush and watching your back in-case something else was hunting you.

 

[martok2112]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

One of the things I liked about Fallout New Vegas, Reverend, was the utilization of a "reality" mode....where hunger and hydration and sleep were things you had to monitor to keep your character (male or female) alive and well. As your hunger, hydration, and sleep meters increased, you would start to incur penalties...and if you let them go too long....you died.

That would've been an interesting system to introduce into the TR reboot, but looking at the forums, not to many other players were interested in such a system.

Some of us even entertain the idea of an "open world" TR styled game, similar to Fallout 3/New Vegas, but the majority didn't seem to like that idea.

 

[SPCTRE]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Some of us even entertain the idea of an "open world" TR styled game, similar to Fallout 3/New Vegas, but the majority didn't seem to like that idea.

The presentation of the game leading up to the release, as well as the way the ingame map was designed, heavily implied a more open-world type of game with a stronger focus on exploration.

That aspect, much like the idea of a more survival-based gameplay, were dropped almost completely during development. I enjoyed what we got in the final product, but it could have been a very different kind of experience (hopefully a well-designed one).

 

[Owain Taggart]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

That's the general sentiment of a lot of newcomers to Tomb Raider...and no disrespect to them, but especially to those who never even gave TR a second thought because, to them, she seemed more like just a physical construct...a fantasy girl.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call myself a newcomer. I've played quite a few of them including the recent HD trilogy that was put out on the PS3. But I understand where you're coming from. I dunno, I just never felt she was real to me. She felt, to me, more like a bunch of tropes. Don't get me wrong, they were good games for their time though. But the differences you mention in her are likely done through different trends in gaming as the series has progressed.

And yeah, I do plan on playing Last of Us. Just as soon as I get rid of my backlog Currently playing through Arkham City.

The SO is a huge Tomb Raider fan (played the original trilogy and most of the later games) and she was disappointed with the reboot. Not because of story or characterization but because of the gameplay.

In her words, they made a "guy game" out of it (because of the lenghty stealth and TPS sequences) and completely neglected the actual puzzling and, you know, Tomb Raiding aspect of the franchise. Personally, I enjoyed the stealth and action segments, but I definitely agree that the few "tombs" were ridiculously short and way too easy to solve. Overall, it was still my favorite game of 2013, which was a big surprise to me.

From what I've heard from the devs talking about the sequel, they've taken that criticism to heart, which makes me very optimistic

Now see, that's interesting. I suspect that's a result of the gameplay changing to adapt to modern trends. When the original TR games came out, stealth wasn't even a thing. The Thief games basically created the idea of stealth and sneaking, Deus Ex took it and ran with it and the industry pretty much started incorporating stealth everywhere they could. Implemented well, they can be fun, but if not, they can be really irritating. Shame about the tombs though, as I would be disappointed with that as well. But good to know that she'll be venturing deeper in the next installment.

 

[martok2112]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

And yeah, I do plan on playing Last of Us. Just as soon as I get rid of my backlog Currently playing through Arkham City.

The Arkham games rock!

 

[SPCTRE]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

The SO is a huge Tomb Raider fan (played the original trilogy and most of the later games) and she was disappointed with the reboot. Not because of story or characterization but because of the gameplay.

In her words, they made a "guy game" out of it (because of the lenghty stealth and TPS sequences) and completely neglected the actual puzzling and, you know, Tomb Raiding aspect of the franchise. Personally, I enjoyed the stealth and action segments, but I definitely agree that the few "tombs" were ridiculously short and way too easy to solve. Overall, it was still my favorite game of 2013, which was a big surprise to me.

From what I've heard from the devs talking about the sequel, they've taken that criticism to heart, which makes me very optimistic

Now see, that's interesting. I suspect that's a result of the gameplay changing to adapt to modern trends. When the original TR games came out, stealth wasn't even a thing. The Thief games basically created the idea of stealth and sneaking, Deus Ex took it and ran with it and the industry pretty much started incorporating stealth everywhere they could. Implemented well, they can be fun, but if not, they can be really irritating. Shame about the tombs though, as I would be disappointed with that as well. But good to know that she'll be venturing deeper in the next installment.

Yeah, the reboot is on several levels reactive to contemporary game design trends, hence the stealth segments (which are well done, I might add) and the gameplay drawing inspiration from the Uncharted series in many ways.

 

[martok2112]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Yeah, the reboot is on several levels reactive to contemporary game design trends, hence the stealth segments (which are well done, I might add) and the gameplay drawing inspiration from the Uncharted series in many ways.

A notion that tends to piss off some of the more ardent TR fans. LOL!

The way I see it, the prior TR series inspired Uncharted, which in turn, with its cinematic flair and gameplay, Uncharted inspired the reboot of Tomb Raider. It's circular inspiration. Not quite "chicken or the egg", but definitely circular.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I thought the new Tomb Raider game was too easy, too streamlined and too short. But I definitely liked the new Lara. Good look, great voice.

 

[martok2112]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Yeah, the game was rather short....but still mostly well executed.

I remember when I played the very first Tomb Raider (seemingly centuries ago...LOL), it took me weeks to actually beat the game. I mean it was ginormous....and this was on the original PlayStation.

Even the Anniversary remake seemed rather short compared to the very original game.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Yeah, the reboot is on several levels reactive to contemporary game design trends, hence the stealth segments (which are well done, I might add) and the gameplay drawing inspiration from the Uncharted series in many ways.

A notion that tends to piss off some of the more ardent TR fans. LOL!

And I could see why it would, but games will often be inspired by other games. It's the ebb and flow of game development. It's funny in the sense that it was the Uncharted series that ended up being most of the inspiration when itself was inspired by TR. The Uncharted series did something amazing. It had big vast dungeons, something you could possibly imagine really existing or appearing in an Indiana Jones movie, but at the same time giving a heavy nod to the TR games with its puzzles, like the mirror puzzle in the second game. It was the aesthetics that in-part drew me in that I kind of wished TR had more of, so maybe future games will have more of that in them? What I mean is, the dungeons didn't exactly look like dungeons in UC but more like real visitable environments.

I'd like to see her visit some historically significant locations. Technically she did in one of the Trilogy games with the sword? But it didn't really feel historical.

 

[martok2112]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

Indeed, Owain.

There's nothing wrong with games or films taking inspiration from another.

Tomb Raider inspired Uncharted, which, in turn, inspired the reboot of Tomb Raider.

Star Trek inspired Star Wars, which, in turn, inspired the big screen move for Star Trek. (Of course, both owe much to Forbidden Planet. )

And then, at that, movies inspire games.

Tomb Raider and Uncharted, both clearly inspired by Indiana Jones.

Halo, clearly inspired by ALIENS...and the producers of the game have said that they make no bones about it.

(Sadly, for most cases, it would seem that games do not inspire the best movies. ) (Although I love the Resident Evil movies. )

 

[Owain Taggart]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

And we could go on and on...


Heh yeah, I agree about games based on movies. For the most part, they're dreadful. The 90's seemed to have quite a surge of game-based movies, non of which were particularly memorable other than how awful they were. Ironically, the first Tomb Raider was among one of the best game-based movies. Didn't care so much for the second one, but the first was pretty good as far as things go. Now, if they were to ever make an Uncharted movie, I'd think it would be pretty hard to screw up considering the games have always had a strong story with interesting characters to begin with.

 

[martok2112]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

I wasn't really impressed with either Tomb Raider movie....for reasons I'll keep to myself for the sake of keeping the peace.

I do have hopes that an Uncharted movie will really be good. As you said, Owain, the UC games have really good stories to begin with.

The big problem with making a movie from a game is that if you follow the game too closely, then you'll know exactly what happens to which characters, and thus, the movie is practically spoiled. So, for an Uncharted movie to work, they'll have to invent a completely new story...one that definitely won't find its way into a game adaptation. Perhaps a story that takes place in between Uncharted 3 and 4, so they can invent some new disposable bad (and good) guys.

Resident Evil did a decent job (in my humble opinion) of inventing some new characters and a new story so that we didn't know what was going to happen to whom. As the stories went on, they seemed to become less and less about the zombies, and more about this superhuman heroine, Alice. The sequels did contain a few game characters. As much as I enjoyed the movies, they did go a bit over the top, and became more "all out action movies" rather than "zombie apocalypse" flicks.

I also enjoyed the Silent Hill movies. The tone of the movies (much like the games that inspired them) had more in common with the likes of The Exorcist or The Omen rather than just being another zombie apocalypse series of movies.


As I was stating earlier, a lot of games do not translate well from the movies/shows that inspire them.

The Walking Dead (awesome tv show) has had mixed success in the video game world. On the one hand, the Telltale games versions have been met with some critical and audience success, whereas the first person shooter based on The Walking Dead was a total flop.

There hasn't been a Superman game yet that has met with any success, and yet the Batman: Arkham series of games (largely based on Batman: The Animated Series...especially in terms of voice cast) has sold quite well for comic book/tv show/movie based games.

Aliens: Colonial Marines (much as I enjoyed this highly flawed game) was another semi-flop...but that was largely because Gearbox Software dropped the ball on production in favor of their own big IP (Borderlands 2) and outsourced A:CM to an inferior developer. And it was meant to be an official, canonized sequel to ALIENS, the movie.

Of course, the Star Wars and Star Trek games have been met with mixed success as well.

 

[RoJoHen]

Re: Lack of female assassins in Assassin's Creed? 'Reality of producti

The big problem with making a movie from a game is that if you follow the game too closely, then you'll know exactly what happens to which characters, and thus, the movie is practically spoiled. So, for an Uncharted movie to work, they'll have to invent a completely new story...one that definitely won't find its way into a game adaptation. Perhaps a story that takes place in between Uncharted 3 and 4, so they can invent some new disposable bad (and good) guys.

I don't know; it's not that different from any other adaptation, is it? I suppose you could tell a new story, but there's no reason you'd have to. Most people who see the movie probably wouldn't have played the game anyway.

Besides, setting it between UC 3 and 4 wouldn't make sense. UC3 was essentially the story of how Drake "retired" so he could be with Elena. UC4 is going to be about him "getting back in the game."

A condensed version of the first game would make the most sense for a film.