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The Cloud Minders

So are the Troglytes and Stratos-dwellers actually two separate species or something? (You can tell how long it's been since I've seen this episode.) If, on the other hand, they're purely social classifications, might it be possible for a Trog to increase in social status, eventually move to Stratos and become one of them?

Or are the Trogs literally "wild things" who...oh damn. :lol:
 
As I see it, they're all one people biologically. Upper and lower class. Whether there is a middle class is unclear, but the sentinels (police officers) might represent that.

Plus someone had to of built that floating city, craftsmen and artisans.

I tend to believe there are complete complex societies on the planets seen in Star Trek, even if we don't actually see them.

:)
 
I tend to believe there are complete complex societies on the planets seen in Star Trek, even if we don't actually see them.
I disagree. When you've got so many aliens that look exactingly Human, in every way, what's left to make them alien? Their technology? Hmmm ... no. I don't think so. Their culture, their way of life, is about all they're left with. So, I tend to accept whatever's shown on that at face value, as being "how it is" on their world ...
 
Spock knew of the term Troglyte prior to he and Kirk beaming down.

And that's what I mean: it is only after seeing these people that our heroes make the connection between the name and the fact that they dwell in caves. Evidently, Spock was thinking that "Troglyte" was some utterly alien name with no etymological connection to the ancient Greek "trogle" for cave (since he repeated the platitude that all people on the planet are devoted to arts, and did not indicate familiarity with the working class once it was revealed to exist). But once he did make the connection, he seemed to think it a genuine etymological one, and not a coincidence. So apparently some local folks who did know that these people dwell in caves gave that name originally (in whichever language - the UT muddles the waters here). And from that I deduce that Troglytes live predominantly in caves, or they wouldn't have earned the name from people in the know.

How old and established this setup is, we can't easily deduce from the dialogue. But there are hints:

McCoy: "Look, I've checked my findings thoroughly. Their intellect ratings are almost twenty percent below average."
Spock: "But they're all the same species. Those who live on Stratos and those who live below all originated on the planet. Their physical and mental evolution must be similar. That is basic biological law."
McCoy: "That's true, Spock, but obviously the ancestors of those who live on Stratos removed themselves from the environment of the mines. Therefore they avoided the effects of certain natural growths."

This doubletalk doesn't exactly establish the folks as natives: "originating on the planet" might be Spock's way of saying they all started from the surface. Whether that was by evolving intelligence, or by landing in a colonization vessel, we don't know, but the planet appears too harsh to support the natural evolution of humanoids... And Spock would be speaking against his better knowledge if he assumed an unduly long period of parallel existence for the two sub-groups, because in anything beyond a few thousand years, differences might indeed evolve naturally.

Later on, Plasus refers to "centuries of evolution", supporting a very short period of social separation...

Timo Saloniemi
 
McCoy: "Look, I've checked my findings thoroughly. Their intellect ratings are almost twenty percent below average."
Spock: "But they're all the same species. Those who live on Stratos and those who live below all originated on the planet. Their physical and mental evolution must be similar. That is basic biological law."
McCoy: "That's true, Spock, but obviously the ancestors of those who live on Stratos removed themselves from the environment of the mines. Therefore they avoided the effects of certain natural growths."
This doubletalk doesn't exactly establish the folks as natives...

No, but it is one of many examples of Spock and McCoy's professional rapport. For all the back-and-forth bickering for which the two are so well known, there are many occurrences where the two of them spoke with mutual respect of each others' ideas when it came to matters of science. :)
 
...Which makes it difficult to understand Roddenberry's decision not to have a science character for TNG. Or, rather, to have Data but not provide his Holmes with a Watson to match. Whenever there is a "concept" involved, TNG has to do direct exposition rather than dialogue; there are no scenes where Data and Crusher would similarly throw ideas back and forth, from two slightly different viewpoints.

When the Watson does enter the picture, in the form of LaForge in the second season, we notice that dialogue between an engineer and a piece of engineering fails on virtually every level. There's no McCoy effect there - it's pure technobabble through and through.

This makes me wish they'd have kept the Pulaski character, who could at least argue ethics and science with Data, for the benefit of the audience.

Timo Saloniemi
 
but the planet appears too harsh to support the natural evolution of humanoids
Possibly Timo there are more arable areas elsewhere on the planet, but they located Stratos directly above the money.



:)
 
That's a very good explanation, but probably not a smart idea from the Stratosian point of view. They could make do without the income from zenite for a while, but if they don't have direct access to the space-durra, astro-aubergine and quadrotrititibarley fields, the Troglytes will have them in a stranglehold in a matter of weeks!

One wonders if the zenite isn't poisoning everything down there, planetwide, making the farmers just as stupid as the miners eventually. Perhaps it wasn't that bad originally, but mining within the past centuries has released so much of the gas that the Stratosians are now correct in their prejudice about the mental capabilities of all Troglytes.

Also, zenite supposedly defeats a botanical plague. What else is it good for? Or is it effective against a wide range of such plagues, and mined for that reason? In any case, we might speculate on the connection between the seemingly infertile conditions down below and the presence of zenite... Perhaps this planet was once lush but was devastated by another botanical plague, leaving only a small community of survivors who had learned to use zenite to fight the malady?

In such a case, though, one would expect a community capable of building floating cities to be capable of a global counterstrike against the plague - and conversely, a society cornered in a small disease-free area could be expected to be incapable of creating a floating city. Unless we're speaking about colonists from outer space, in which case it would make sense for their resources to be concentrated in a small area, and for them to have little interest in protecting the entire planet when they only ever have the manpower to exploit a tiny little corner of it anyway.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Didn't Asimov use a more or less similar setup of a sky city surrounded by a rather compact settlement of repressed masses in one of his early books? Currents of Space? The Stars, Like Dust?
Timo Saloniemi

Not sure about Asimov, but in "Lord of Light" Roger Zelazny created a society where crew members were able to use their technology to turn themselves into de facto gods while leaving the colonists to scratch out a rugged living. Not exactly parallel but somewhat similar.
 
Didn't Asimov use a more or less similar setup of a sky city surrounded by a rather compact settlement of repressed masses in one of his early books? Currents of Space? The Stars, Like Dust?

For the record, it was The Currents of Space, and it's an interesting (if minor) Asimov not least because of how much it works at establishing a society that's complicated and self-contradictory enough to be a real society, which is better than science fiction was doing on average in 1951. Notably, Asimov portrays multiple people in many walks of life in the Sarkian empire, every single one of whom hates the social order and his or her place in it, and none of whom can imagine meaningfully fixing it.
 
Didn't Asimov use a more or less similar setup of a sky city surrounded by a rather compact settlement of repressed masses in one of his early books? Currents of Space? The Stars, Like Dust?
Timo Saloniemi

Not sure about Asimov, but in "Lord of Light" Roger Zelazny created a society where crew members were able to use their technology to turn themselves into de facto gods while leaving the colonists to scratch out a rugged living. Not exactly parallel but somewhat similar.
This sounds suprisingly like Leela's homeworld on Doctor Who, as well.
 
...It's pretty sad to see Asimov downslide so much with his later books, in terms of innovation and inspiration. :(

The "colony immediately split into lords and serfs" thing is probably common and ancient in literature, predating scifi: ships and the helpless self-loading cargo are the perfect setup for that.

It was how some of Larry Niven's human dominion of Known Space came to be, too (colonists in cryosleep made for perfect slaves for the crews that delivered them), and part and parcel of Alastair Reynolds' more recent gonzo-dystopian writing.

As long as we are segueing into alternate scifi, we might theorize that the uniqueness of Stratos and the uniqueness of zenite are directly related. Perhaps zenite provides natural antigravity, in the style of Miyazaki's Laputa, or Avatar? A non-starflight society could then "rise above barbarism" very literally, while remaining fairly primitive technologically. (In contrast, if the Ardanans arrived from outer space originally, they probably already had mastered gadget-based antigravity.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
It's doubtful that zenite is naturally anti-gravity, at least as seen. The canisters of it were sitting there, not floating. Remember, it was processed zenite that was delivered, not ore.
 
True enough. But the substance might need a cue to start the floating act; the magic crystals in Laputa only worked in certain conditions, too...

Timo Saloniemi
 
There's no indication of this at all in the episode. If zenite did have such a property, floating cities should have been more common in Star Trek, since the mineral was being routinely shipped to other planets.
 
And since all we really have to go on is what we actually saw in the episodes, since Stratos is the only floating city not ascribed to some special Star Fleet or Federation technology, and is in fact the only floating city I can recall in TOS, it must be some technological breakthrough the Ardanans haven't shared that makes it float.
 
Spock didn't say it was the only example, but that it was the finest.

In some fashion Stratos is superior to any other, perhaps due to it size? Or the duration it's sustained altitude?



:)
 
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