Homosexuals and Deltans

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So...let' say that in the future...most people are supposed to be a bit more tolerable to same-sex experimentation. Let's take a look at Jim Kirk. He's had sex with just about every type of alien there is to mention...but they are always female. In the latest movie, Kirk is awakened in bed with two alien women...with tails. Surly if Kirk has experimented this MUCH...he's had to have at least one session with another guy.

Maybe. Maybe not. Sure, Kirk may have had a lot of affairs (and by that I mean MAY have - the joke that Kirk sleeps with every woman he meets is just that, a joke. How many actual encounters has he actually HAD? Probably not as many as people think), but that doesn't mean he likes "everything". Maybe he just likes a lot of different types of women.

People are always going to have preferences. Not everyone will like everyone, not even in the future.

 

[SpaceLover65]

Wasn't there a fan film series a few years ago called "Hidden Frontiers" with a gay character? As I remember, it was shot entirely against green screen with the only real part of the "set" being an office chair or something. I lost interest in it fast.

You are right Melakon. I just took a peek at Youtube and found an episode. In it, a Bajorin male and Klingon male share a very passionate kiss. Actually...I found it kinda silly. I guess anything's possible...but Klingons just seem to one sided to take another male as a lover. They just seem too butch for that. But maybe I'm just judging the Klingon race too harshly.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

All they had to do was make those supposed Caitians male. J.Kirk is highly sexual and open in perspective, especially in youth (he gets a big crotchety about stuff in the TOS films LOL).

I have to apologize about my Star Trek ignorance. I've gotten VERY rusty on some things.

So, the aliens that Kirk is seen in bed with in "Into Darkness" are called Caitians? I've never heard of them before.

AND, please forgive me, but what does "TOS" mean? Thanks!

TOS means The Original Series

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Caitian

They were called Caitians by one of the writers Lindelof. I said "supposed" because prior to this Caitians had always been totally furred. I can only assume it was cheaper or someone freaked at the possible furry connotations for Our Hero. Of course there could be different varieties, just kind of annoying when people have wanted to see M'Ress again for soooo long and they give us Caitians without fur.

 

[SpaceLover65]

Here is a picture of the Klingon and Bajorin kiss. And Melakon is right. That series is rather weak...and the quality is terrible. Also, the music that they kiss to sounds like they took it straight from a porno. If there was a site where the quality was better...I might consider watching it. The Phase 2 had MUCH better film quality...although they were constantly swapping actors.

http://images.wikia.com/lostinspace/images/9/96/Frontiers.jpg

 

[Tiberius]

All the main characters sexualities are heterosexual. All romances, sexual encounters, lustful longings and marriages are heterosexual.

So why did Riker go after an individual who was from a species without gender if he only goes for chicks?

Because Soren was a female.

Have you even seen the episode? They very specifically claim that the J'naii only have one gender.

Soren: "I am tired of lies. I am female. I was born that way."

Soren was in fact a female, she lived in a society that had officially done away with traditional gender identities, members of the population were require to conform to the cultural norm of not personally identifying as either male or female.

But despite of their androgyny, the J'naii did have the two genders of male and female.

Soren wanted to be openly feminine, and not androgynous. Through the years she selected J'nailan males for her lovers. Soren's crime within her society was that she wanted to manifest a "traditional" non-androgynous female identity.

This is why she was "reprogrammed" by her society, the official position was that the J'naii had evolved beyond gender.

No they didn't. Soren may have been emotionally and psychologically a female, but she didn't have a vagina. There are no J'naii with vaginas, none with penises.

From the script:

The J'naii are a genderless species; Soren and Krite, like the others, possess no demonstrable sexual characteristics.​

And

SOREN
"He?" Commander, there are no "he's" or "she's" in a species without gender.​

And

RIKER
A little. It's hard to grasp the idea of having no gender...

SOREN
It's just as hard for us to understand the strange division you have in your species... males and females.​

And

SOREN
Just because we don't have gender doesn't mean we don't have conflict.​

And

SOREN
The idea of gender... it's offensive to my people. You see, long ago we had two sexes, as you do. But we evolved... into a higher form.
(beat)
I don't mean to sound insulting... but on my planet we've been taught that gender is...
(struggling for the least offensive word)
...primitive.​

And

SOREN
Occasionally, among my people, a few are born who are -- different. Who are throwbacks to the era when we all had gender. Some are born with strong inclinations toward maleness... and some have urges to be female.
(beat)
I am one of the latter.​

And

SOREN
On our world these feelings are forbidden. Those who are discovered are shamed and ridiculed. Only by undergoing psychotectic therapy and having all elements of gender eliminated can they become accepted into society again.​

And

SOREN
Tell me... about males. What is it that makes you different from females?​

If this doesn't make it clear that there are no different genders for the J'naii, I don't know what will. Your argument seems to make about as much sense as claiming that since a biologically male transgendered person identifies as a woman, this person magically has a vagina.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Actually we have no idea if that was true. It's not as if any J'naii opened their trousers for viewers to examine. We have no proof that they didn't still have gender "underneath," as it were. It could be that their genderless appearance was just that. I mean, they still have to procreate somehow, don't they?

In any case, even if Soren didn't have what we would consider to be "female parts", she still acted like a woman, said she was one, and there was no way for Riker to know if she wasn't one. Simply put, Riker thought Soren was female and acted accordingly. So unless she got naked in front of him - and as far as we know, she didn't - in Riker's mind, Soren was indeed female, because he trusted her when she said so.

Reminds me of this old SVU episode where a guy freaks out when he finds that his girlfriend was actually male. (She never told him, of course. She looked and acted female. And IIRC the guy said he saw her breasts once - she was having treatments, I think) So what? It doesn't suddenly make him gay or anything like that. He thought she was a woman, end of story. Same thing here.

 

[Tiberius]

^ Actually we have no idea if that was true. It's not as if any J'naii opened their trousers for viewers to examine. We have no proof that they didn't still have gender "underneath," as it were. It could be that their genderless appearance was just that. I mean, they still have to procreate somehow, don't they?

In any case, even if Soren didn't have what we would consider to be "female parts", she still acted like a woman, said she was one, and there was no way for Riker to know if she wasn't one. Simply put, Riker thought Soren was female and acted accordingly. So unless she got naked in front of him - and as far as we know, she didn't - in Riker's mind, Soren was indeed female, because he trusted her when she said so.

Reminds me of this old SVU episode where a guy freaks out when he finds that his girlfriend was actually male. (She never told him, of course. She looked and acted female. And IIRC the guy said he saw her breasts once - she was having treatments, I think) So what? It doesn't suddenly make him gay or anything like that. He thought she was a woman, end of story. Same thing here.

We do know. I've editted my post to include many quotes fro the script that clearly state that the J'Naii have no gender. As for their procreation, Soren explains that both parents inseminate a fibrous husk. From the sounds of that, they are both doing the same thing, so two different sets of genitals are not required. All individuals have the same gear between their legs.

In any case, I can't understand how anyone can argue that the J'naii have no gender (or perhaps more accurately, only ONE gender), and yet have two different sets of genitals.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ My point still stands. Soren's comments don't mean that the J'naii don't have physical differences in sex. Like I said, how could they procreate in the first place if they didn't? She could have been referring to identity and nothing more.

In any case, it doesn't matter. Whether or not the J'naii really didn't have gender, Riker treated Soren as if they did. He thought Soren was female and that's why he liked her.

 

[Tiberius]

^ My point still stands. Soren's comments don't mean that the J'naii don't have physical differences in sex. Like I said, how could they procreate in the first place if they didn't? She could have been referring to identity and nothing more.

In any case, it doesn't matter. Whether or not the J'naii really didn't have gender, Riker treated Soren as if they did. He thought Soren was female and that's why he liked her.

Huh?

You are saying that there might still be two different types of genitals among the J'naii? If that were the case, and one of each was required to create a child, then that would by definition, be two different genders! The episode can not be more clear that this is not the case.

And as I said, PSYCHOLOGICALLY Soren may have been female, but physically and genetically she was the same gender as everyone else on the planet.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

One of Soren's lines which you quoted directly referred to "an era where [they] all had gender". How would you explain THAT line? A change in the physiology of the species?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

So...let' say that in the future...most people are supposed to be a bit more tolerable to same-sex experimentation. Let's take a look at Jim Kirk. He's had sex with just about every type of alien there is to mention...but they are always female. In the latest movie, Kirk is awakened in bed with two alien women...with tails. Surly if Kirk has experimented this MUCH...he's had to have at least one session with another guy.

Maybe. Maybe not. Sure, Kirk may have had a lot of affairs (and by that I mean MAY have - the joke that Kirk sleeps with every woman he meets is just that, a joke. How many actual encounters has he actually HAD? Probably not as many as people think), but that doesn't mean he likes "everything". Maybe he just likes a lot of different types of women.

But I want him to be double the slut!

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

One of Soren's lines which you quoted directly referred to "an era where [they] all had gender". How would you explain THAT line? A change in the physiology of the species?

It's explained:

SOREN
The idea of gender... it's offensive to my people. You see, long ago we had two sexes, as you do. But we evolved... into a higher form.
(beat)
I don't mean to sound insulting... but on my planet we've been taught that gender is...
(struggling for the least offensive word)
...primitive.

Also as far as gay male Klingons go KRAD had a Klingon male captain with a male underling he regularly took to bed in the novels. There was lots of smirking on the bridge iirc. It was done very well, the Captain being seen as a man of appetites.

 

[Melakon]

Wasn't there a fan film series a few years ago called "Hidden Frontiers" with a gay character? As I remember, it was shot entirely against green screen with the only real part of the "set" being an office chair or something. I lost interest in it fast.

You are right Melakon. I just took a peek at Youtube and found an episode. In it, a Bajorin male and Klingon male share a very passionate kiss. Actually...I found it kinda silly. I guess anything's possible...but Klingons just seem to one sided to take another male as a lover. They just seem too butch for that. But maybe I'm just judging the Klingon race too harshly.

The only actor in that series I liked was David W. Dial (I remembered his name immediately, but had to confirm he was in it). He seemed like the best actor in the bunch, being a bit more polished, but seemed a little goofy at times. Apologies to David if he's reading.

 

[SpaceLover65]

All they had to do was make those supposed Caitians male. I originally thought make one of them a male, but I'm sure that would cause it's own problems and people would still say doesn't prove anything.

I actually think that you had a great idea Teacock. Having Kirk awaken in bed with a male and female Caitian WOULD have been interesting and raised a few eyebrows. ESPECIALLY, if Kirk had been either in the middle...or the Caitian male in the middle. I would have LOVED to have seen that. You actually had a great idea...even if it doesn't necessarily prove anything. BUT Jim Kirk waking up naked with a male Caitian next to him would have forced a lot of people to guess what might have been going on the previous night.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Done

Of all the human males in ENT, he spent the least amount of time shirtless. A crime if you ask me.

They should have just had him shirtless all the time!

Shirtless on the bridge, just sittin' there at the helm.. shirtless. Every episode. No one would even complain that he didn't speak then.

Sounds like a solid plan if you ask me! The producers of ENT missed a trick there.

So...let' say that in the future...most people are supposed to be a bit more tolerable to same-sex experimentation. Let's take a look at Jim Kirk. He's had sex with just about every type of alien there is to mention...but they are always female. In the latest movie, Kirk is awakened in bed with two alien women...with tails. Surly if Kirk has experimented this MUCH...he's had to have at least one session with another guy.

Maybe. Maybe not. Sure, Kirk may have had a lot of affairs (and by that I mean MAY have - the joke that Kirk sleeps with every woman he meets is just that, a joke. How many actual encounters has he actually HAD? Probably not as many as people think), but that doesn't mean he likes "everything". Maybe he just likes a lot of different types of women.

But I want him to be double the slut!

Just wait for the scene in NuTrek III, when he and Spock turn their backs on Marcus and Uhura and surrender to their true desires--my god it'll be the most pornographic Trek has ever been!

 

[Amaris]

One of Soren's lines which you quoted directly referred to "an era where [they] all had gender". How would you explain THAT line? A change in the physiology of the species?

It's explained:

SOREN
The idea of gender... it's offensive to my people. You see, long ago we had two sexes, as you do. But we evolved... into a higher form.
(beat)
I don't mean to sound insulting... but on my planet we've been taught that gender is...
(struggling for the least offensive word)
...primitive.

Yep. When I saw that episode, I took it immediately that the J'naii had no gender; that "male" and "female" did not exist as a hard fact as it does for us.

Also as far as gay male Klingons go KRAD had a Klingon male captain with a male underling he regularly took to bed in the novels. There was lots of smirking on the bridge iirc. It was done very well, the Captain being seen as a man of appetites.

This interests me. Go on...

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

So...let' say that in the future...most people are supposed to be a bit more tolerable to same-sex experimentation.

It's been shown that future humans don't just tolerate others who are different but embrace them as equals in all things.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

the most pornographic Trek has ever been!

So, bit of heavy breathing in the dark?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Also as far as gay male Klingons go KRAD had a Klingon male captain with a male underling he regularly took to bed in the novels. There was lots of smirking on the bridge iirc. It was done very well, the Captain being seen as a man of appetites.

This interests me. Go on...

Can't recall details.. but I think he was married to a female and this was a shipboard affair. I just remember being impressed by how it was handled. It was also pretty hot.

IKS Gorkon series (good trilogy all round).

 

[SpaceLover65]

Hmm... I don't know. ^ I think I'd freak out a little if Kirk and Spock started snogging on the Enterprise. I'm ready for a gay character for Star Trek. I like the idea of Kirk being double the slut and going both ways. I always thought that William Shatner portrayed Kirk as possibly being interested in both sexes. It was just this look that he'd have. I remember Mad Magazine did a parody of Star Trek. And Kirk mutated into a women. And the funny thing...it was absolutely believable. The female version of Kirk was hard as nails...but still had the time to do "her" hair, find a flattering skirt...and still get the job done. William Shatner was a great actor....he could have done a wonderful job in playing a bi Jim Kirk.