Falling Skies - season 3

[Admiral2]

The Charleston presidency means jack shit if there's a real president who has connected the entire rest of America together...

Yes, IF. The plane crash just puts us back where we started. If Hathaway's alive, he's still the real president. If he's not, there is no legitimate line of succession behind him so the Charelston Presidency is just as legitimate as anybody else's.

Getting off "Scott-free" had pretty good odds when the betting was going on for the consequences of Hal's behavior. Nice to see at least some of the background players noticing the free pass that the Mason family seems to own. Though hanging a lamp on the issue sure didn't change the end of the episode: all is forgiven for Hal's "little episode" and the Mason boys ride off into their next adventure.

Yeah, but that was the best scene of the whole episode! Right out of "Bonanza!" Pa Mason and the Mason Boys riding off to save Mama Mason and the young'un. That was classic!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Ben Hathaway is President because he connected the country with radio, not because of anything that happened pre-invasion, including his election.

"Humans build communities."

Is that girl in the plane, still flying around, telling people how cool Charleston is?

 

[Admiral2]

Ben Hathaway is President because he connected the country with radio, not because of anything that happened pre-invasion, including his election.

No, that just makes him John Connor. His election made him president. Period. That's how it works.

"Humans build communities."

And the community we're talking about has set rules for choosing its leaders and their successors, and nowhere in the rule book does being good on the radio appear as a qualification.

Is that girl in the plane, still flying around, telling people how cool Charleston is?

No, she's in Charleston, maintaining her community and defending it against all enemies foreign and domestic, which is her job.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The old America is dead.

Any official maps being produced at the time of this occupation would clearly label the North American Continent as "Upper Skitterville".

Charleston claims leadership of "The New United States" which is an altogether different country than the (old) United States. George Washington was not the first American President. There were 8 presidents before George including John Hancock who were subservient to the alien command of the British Crown.

What is happening in Charleston is a separatist uprising of well armed extremist wackos who are trying to overthrow the government. A government in hiding too scared to defend it's rapidly dwindling almost vanished population, or a government of Aspheni. If Charleston drives the Aspheni offworld, it's unlikely that they are going to do much anything else but claim dominance rather than hand over command to a coward who hid in a bunker for 3 or four years while they carved up a new world.

Hathaway unless he is lying to himself, is also the President of a NEW United States of America.

Neither New United states has the will or manifest destiny to claim the entire old United States, so really if the aliens lose, then there is going to be a very short civil war where Charston proves their military dominance over the former controlling body of the old United States, and accepts their surrender. I'm assuming healthy integration after that point rather than the creation of some Hathaway loyalist underclass gritting their teeth for the next 20 years blowing up post offices when they feel like explaining how should really be in charge.

The UN says that you find unclaimed land and plant a flag. 200 miles in every direction of that flag is your country. The issue in today's world is finding unclaimed land. But I saw (part of) a Documentary series a few years ago about a guy who was trying to found his own country, and he explored all the possibilities, loopholes and dead ends to get there... There is apparently a drilling rig that declared independence and personal sovereignty a few decades back and have managed to hold their ground for goodness knows what reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Start_Your_Own_Country

 

[Admiral2]

The old America is dead.

Not if the pre-invasion president is still alive. Quote you:

The Charleston presidency means jack shit if there's a real president

Exactly.

Any official maps being produced at the time of this occupation would clearly label the North American Continent as "Upper Skitterville".

"Official maps" are drawn by the occupants. Charleston itself is run by humans, and therefore the map of Charleston remains the same, as does any map the people of Charleston see fit to draw.

Charleston claims leadership of "The New United States" which is an altogether different country than the (old) United States.

But just as legitimate if the last vestiges of the old nation are truly gone.

George Washington was not the first American President.

No, he was the first President of the United States. There's a difference.

There were 8 presidents before George including John Hancock who were subservient to the alien command of the British Crown.

Presidents under the Articles of Confederation do not count as Presidents of the United States. Again, there's a difference.

What is happening in Charleston is a separatist uprising of well armed extremist wackos who are trying to overthrow the government.

No it's trying to defend people the government has abandoned.

A government in hiding too scared to defend it's rapidly dwindling almost vanished population, or a government of Aspheni. If Charleston drives the Aspheni offworld, it's unlikely that they are going to do much anything else but claim dominance rather than hand over command to a coward who hid in a bunker for 3 or four years while they carved up a new world.

And if he's dead, they don't have to. We keep coming back to that "if."

Hathaway unless he is lying to himself, is also the President of a NEW United States of America.

No he's the President of the original United States of America. If he's alive. That's just how it works.

Neither New United states has the will or manifest destiny to claim the entire old United States, so really if the aliens lose, then there is going to be a very short civil war where Charston proves their military dominance over the former controlling body of the old United States, and accepts their surrender. I'm assuming healthy integration after that point rather than the creation of some Hathaway loyalist underclass gritting their teeth for the next 20 years blowing up post offices when they feel like explaining how should really be in charge.

The first thing Tom did when he was told the pre-invasion president might still be alive was go see for himself. when he found out it was true he reported as if hathaway had authority. Americans understand how this country works. If the aliens get kicked off the planet people will be looking for normalcy, and the pre-invasion president would embody that. There won't be a civil war.

The UN says that you find unclaimed land and plant a flag.

Dude, if america is dead, what makes you think the UN, headquartered in America, survived? And how are its tenets any more legitimate than dead America's tenets?

Screw what the UN says.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm all over the place, because that's who I am, you seem to be as dishevelled in your arguments as I am. I'm obviously a bad influence. Sorry about that.

What's your opinion on the Emperor of America?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Norton

Or what about when there were two Presidents?

Was Jefferson Davis still the President after the Confederacy surrendered?

Would Hathaway still be president if he tried to surrender? How many unsuccessful surrenders were his seconds going to allow him before they relived Ben of duty for being wimp?

Focussing on your argument...

The President is the president until he dies (or reaches the end of his term, or reaches the end of his term limits. It's been three years. If Hathaway is persisting without re-election, then his presidency may not be entirely legal. But then asking for a show of hands from a room full of his buddies might technically count as an election.).

The President is given power by the people through election, and it is that power that defines him and not the size or power of the actual United States, since, as far as the Aspheni war machine is concerned they own every inch of land on the planet which he could think to stand on. So even if there is no United States the real-estate, there's still the United States the concept which is in the hearts of the citizens, you know until they're all murdered by Aspheni cannon fire, just like how the Jews wandered around for centuries without a country to call their own.

So after they kill all the Americans, is it then that there is no United States of America? I mean there is still an Italy and a Rome, but no "Romans" to speak of despite Tony Soprano's protestations other wise that he is the legacy of the Roman Empire... RIP Jim.

Yes I agree that a white on white (wait for it.) civil war is unlikely after Earth is taken back, especially if Free Elections are on the books immediatelyish that Hathaway can stand against whoever represents Charleston and any other contenders for leadership... Although if Hathaway has been in touch with and protecting %99 of the country which survived the first days of the war, surely his base in the millions should be able to outvote the shit out of the thousands living in Charleston even if they are the greatest war heroes ever?

Back to the racial thing.

Native Americans.

Fuck whitey.

Whitey moved in, out bred them, and invented a mystical magical pretend government that stole their land and turned them for the most part for the first 400 years into third class citizens.

To the Indians, there should be barely any difference between the Aspheni and the Europeans, and frankly if they don't take advantage of this opportunity to fight whitey on a level playing field to take their country back, they almost deserve being practically exterminated by white America, just like multicoloured America deserved to be exterminated if they had rolled over for the Aspheni.

In the other post Apocalypse show "Revolution" if whitey strays into Plains Nation Territory, which covers a serious chunk of the former united states, they get their face cut off.

 

[bigdaddy]

Yesterday's episode was completely pointless. Why resign? I know the show is just a fun adventure show, but at times it's just like "This is a waste of a decent idea for a show".

Also, I'm not one to normally pick like "Why do the aliens speak English on Star Trek", but why would they be making booze? I'd use the corn and what not to make ethanol to make gasoline.

 

[sojourner]

Who was making booze? I was under the impression it was all scavenged.

 

[DarthTom]

Who was making booze? I was under the impression it was all scavenged.

Vodka and Gin are fairly easily to distill so long as you have potatoes and boiling water.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If they had boiling water, everyone wouldn't look so filthy.

 

[sojourner]

Who was making booze? I was under the impression it was all scavenged.

Vodka and Gin are fairly easily to distill so long as you have potatoes and boiling water.

Did I miss a line in the show regarding them making alcohol?

 

[Shawnster]

^ No, you didn't miss any comments about them making alcohol. We're assuming, and for good reason. It's been what, 3, 4 years since the invasion? Where is all this alcohol coming from? Pope runs a bar! The Col. stopped by whiskey (which is not that easy to distill and doesn't come from potatoes, unlike vodka). It they are getting all of this booze from scavenging, then I'd think they would be running out before now. You have to think a lot got destroyed in the invasion. Your local mini-mart or state liquor store isn't going to have 3 or 4 years of booze stockpiled.

And, yes, where is the gasoline coming from? More scavenging? Gas goes bad if it sits too long.

I am losing interest in the show. I loved the alien invasion story to begin with, but I lost interest when the baby storyline came along. There are other things as well, but I don't want to slip in any spoilers.

I'm actually shocked we've made it 3 years with a renewal for season 4. 10 episodes a season with such a long break in between, I'm really surprised we all remember the show is on come the next season.

I'm also betting that the president and Cochise will turn up alive. Their unconfirmed deaths have been unconfirmed for too long.

My thoughts exactly. It's like we've completely forgotten about the other plane going down and his entire organization. Surely there was more to Hathaway's group than just what was on that one plane.

And we've not gotten a replacement for Cochise yet?

Either we've got a completely dropped story point or we'll see someone from that plane wreck again.

The Charleston presidency means jack shit if there's a real president who has connected the entire rest of America together...

Yes, IF. The plane crash just puts us back where we started. If Hathaway's alive, he's still the real president. If he's not, there is no legitimate line of succession behind him so the Charelston Presidency is just as legitimate as anybody else's.

The old America is dead.

Not if the pre-invasion president is still alive. Quote you:

The Charleston presidency means jack shit if there's a real president

Exactly.

This is where it's going to get real confusing. What makes the Charleston group any more "official" than some other band of Americans fighting on the West Coast? In all likelihood there are numerous Presidents of the "New" United States scattered about in San Diego, Seattle, Tulsa, etc... You get my point. Falling Skies is focused on this one group of survivors or insurgents. What gives this group of insurgents any more authority than another group that is off screen? They are all cut off from one another and isolated. There is no way for Charleston to know if they are the only group left in the United States or if there are other groups.

To assume they are the supreme authority of the "New" United States is either arrogant or exaggeration. The idea that someone can be President is just as much a joke. Who voted? When were elections held? How widespread was the voting? Does the "New" Untied States encompass all the territory of the "Old" United States? Were the citizens in these areas given a chance to vote?

We saw the President a few episodes ago. Apparently he survived the invasion and has been trying to fight back. Was he in touch with the rest of the Nation? Did all of those in the line of Presidential succession know Hathaway was still alive and in charge? Was there or is there another resistance group in Nevada or Minnesota being led by someone that is in the line of Presidential succession? What about the state governors? While they are not listed in the line of succession, they are in charge of their state. Further, I can see how, in such a widespread disaster, a governor would assume control and declare himself "President" of the United States. Heck, Alaska and Hawaii are probably completely untouched by this invasion.

No, this is all just one big mess. If or when the humans do survive and kick the alien invaders off the Earth, there is going to be a big mess to sort out. The old country boundaries definitely no longer mean anything. Being President, Prime Minister, King or Emperor doesn't mean anything either when your entire nation has been blasted back to the stone age. Do you really think Canada or Mexico has respected the border? If there was a strong organized government in either of those countries, don't you think they would cross over into the United States in search of food, fuel or supplies? I'm sure they would assume control of any pockets of humanity they could easily reach. Heck, the scant survivors hiding in Brownville, TX would welcome their new Mexican governors and leaders if it meant food, fuel, medical care and organized resistance to the invaders.

In such a devastating and destructive invasion that we've seen depicted, all the old borders will become meaningless. Heck, even the state borders won't mean anything. Do you really think all those survivors living in Michigan's Upper Peninsula would look to anyone in Lansing for direction and support? The Mackinac bridge is probably gone and anyone in the UP would have to look to Wisc. for any hope of civilization and support.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Hathaway was/is in contact, co-ordinaiting "hundreds" of resistance groups up and down continental America.

Charleston believed it was the last hold out of humanity, that had to make as many babies as possible before the species died out.

 

[propita]

They showed a trailer for next week. Hathaway's in a hospital bed.

 

[bigdaddy]

It's been only two years since the invasion. Doesn't make sense to me, but they mentioned it a few episodes back.

 

[Guy Gardener]

2 and a fraction, but it has to be closer to 3 than 2.

 

[bigdaddy]

It's been 25 or 26 months. I swear the first season takes place 6 months after, then 3 months between seasons 1 and 2 (I think) and 7 months between seasons 2 and 3.

So pretty much everything we have seen on scene only takes place in 9 months.

 

[RJDiogenes]

They showed a trailer for next week. Hathaway's in a hospital bed.

I didn't think we'd seen the last of him.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's been 25 or 26 months. I swear the first season takes place 6 months after, then 3 months between seasons 1 and 2 (I think) and 7 months between seasons 2 and 3.

So pretty much everything we have seen on scene only takes place in 9 months.

Do your sums work out the same if you use the baby as a yard stick?

 

[bigdaddy]

It's been 25 or 26 months. I swear the first season takes place 6 months after, then 3 months between seasons 1 and 2 (I think) and 7 months between seasons 2 and 3.

So pretty much everything we have seen on scene only takes place in 9 months.

Do your sums work out the same if you use the baby as a yard stick?

No because it's an alien baby and it be like "Whats a yard?"