Miranda starships in war

[USS KG5]

It might only take a couple of dozen crew to fly a Miranda in ideal conditions - but it could still take the full 200 to 400 crew to operate her in battle.

I would honestly be surprised if it took even nearly that many - why would a ship like that, presumably fitted out with reasonably modern systems, need a far larger crew than the comparable Defiant class ships?

Starfleet presumably has a far easier time churning out little cruisers than it has churning out its highly skilled crews. I imagine best use of personnel would make the allocation of 400 crew to a small combatant of limited capabilities in wartime unwise. Installing automated systems makes a lot more sense.

Warships in the real world have large crews simply because large scale automation of any systems is not really a reality in our time. That said the Royal Navy's new Carriers and Destroyers have smaller crews than ever before.

It seems odd to have massive ships like the Galaxy class with a mere 1000 personnel, maybe only 850 of these are crew! It would however be even more odd to stick 200 to 400 personnel on a (still huge) ship a fraction of its size?

 

[Colonel Midnight]

^ FWIW... There's another reason for a large crew on a combatant in RL.

Cannon fodder / damage.

There's basically two (or more) people for any given position, with the exception of the command cadre, in case one of them is lost. As that line from the A&E Hornblower movies goes, "The mathematics of defeat...', although not the same circumstances per se.

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[Deks]

The Mirandas most likely underwent system upgrades throughout the years they've been in service.
I doubt the external design would actually change very much compared to the internal systems because SF can still fit new systems inside an older design shell.

also, with introduction of new system, a ship would likely be much more automated and thus require less crew members ... not more.

It would be prudent even to outfit those ships with minimal crews in combats when going up against much more powerful foes in order to minimize man-power loss.
At the same time, transporters can be set from nearby ships to transport the crews in danger to safety through shields (given this feature would likely be available for all allied ships).

 

[KlingonPredator]

Mirandas most likely are heavily armed and can go toe to toe with many of Starfleet's foes...but with the large scale fleet battles,concentrated fire from Dominion ships would be hard to survive in such a situation. I'll bet the Mirandas aquit themselves well in one on one situations with similiar sized ships.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

I do know that during war time you go where you told to go but to be assigned to a Miranda just seems a bit crazy like sending a pre WW2 Destroyer against a modern Battleship.

Are there even modern battleships? I thought most of the world decommissioned them years ago, they went out with World War 2 and the age of the aircraft carrier began.

 

[Plecostomus]

The big-ass Kirov-class warship the Soviet Union created and the modernized Iowa-class that the RR/80s Cold War-era navy fielded would be good examples.

Aircraft carriers and submarines have replaced the Large Ass-Kicking Surface Unit for the most part. You still need surface units of small to medium displacement for protecting the carriers and hunting the odd pirate and other assorted tasks. Aircraft and submarine launched cruise-missiles can do what the big guns of the Iowa did... and far better too... and I think it's also cheaper to fire a missile at a target than it is to slide the Iowa into position with its crew and bombard a target with shells.

 

[USS KG5]

and I think it's also cheaper to fire a missile at a target than it is to slide the Iowa into position with its crew and bombard a target with shells.

Less collateral damage as well - quite a consideration in the modern age.

 

[KlingonPredator]

Sixteen inch shells are cheaper than missles. An Iowa class battleship is the only thing afloat that can take hits from modern weapons and still carry out it's assignment. In a close support role,they can't be beat,which is one reason they have not been stricken from the list. All three Iowa class batleships can be reactivated if the Navy decides it needs them.

 

[USS KG5]

Sixteen inch shells are cheaper than missiles. An Iowa class battleship is the only thing afloat that can take hits from modern weapons and still carry out it's assignment.

Well it can take hits, but surely it makes more sense to stay out of range of the enemy in the first place, as modern warships armed with missiles can do.

Also the shells might be cheaper but a massive ship like an Iowa is extremely expensive to maintain, and also needs all the AA and ASW escorts a carrier does, as like all Battleships (or any large combatant) they are very vulnerable to sub torpedoes.

In a close support role,they can't be beat,which is one reason they have not been stricken from the list. All three Iowa class batleships can be reactivated if the Navy decides it needs them.

Well, actually they can be beaten pretty easily by air cover, and it has been that way since WW2. There are great as monitors for close range support of an amphibious landing, as you say. However, the circumstances in which they are great (close support of a heavily opposed amphibious landing) are usually avoided these days because of the casualty rates.

They were retired because of cost, and I hope that for the sake of the lives of thousands of US servicemen that they are never needed again.

 

[The Badger]

Just out of interest, we've seen some spectacular Miranda class destructions. Does any one know, ball park figures, how many of these were before the Federation learnt to defend themselves from Dominion weapons, and how many after?

 

[Timo]

Well, the final DS9 episodes recycled a lot of the more spectacular VFX bits, including a Miranda destruction (this bit was actually seen in three episodes!) and another shot where enemy phaser beams go straight through a Starfleet hull.

Essentially, all the death scenes came after the shields were upgraded to resist phaser polaron beams (this happened in "Call to Arms" already!) and before Starfleet learned to make the shields strong enough to prevent piercing (this never happened).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[KlingonPredator]

Sixteen inch shells are cheaper than missiles. An Iowa class battleship is the only thing afloat that can take hits from modern weapons and still carry out it's assignment.

Well it can take hits, but surely it makes more sense to stay out of range of the enemy in the first place, as modern warships armed with missiles can do.

Also the shells might be cheaper but a massive ship like an Iowa is extremely expensive to maintain, and also needs all the AA and ASW escorts a carrier does, as like all Battleships (or any large combatant) they are very vulnerable to sub torpedoes.

In a close support role,they can't be beat,which is one reason they have not been stricken from the list. All three Iowa class batleships can be reactivated if the Navy decides it needs them.

Well, actually they can be beaten pretty easily by air cover, and it has been that way since WW2. There are great as monitors for close range support of an amphibious landing, as you say. However, the circumstances in which they are great (close support of a heavily opposed amphibious landing) are usually avoided these days because of the casualty rates.

They were retired because of cost, and I hope that for the sake of the lives of thousands of US servicemen that they are never needed again.

Battleships do have a complement of about 1500 but they are not going to be out there alone. Nobody in their right mind would attack a battleship because first of all they would never get within range with a sub or surface group to get a shot off. That 16 inch armor belt would stop any modern torpedo and as I said before,no modern weaponry can damage one except for a nuke,and that would have to be a direct hit. Compared to the cost of an Aegis class cruiser or destroyer,an battleship is a better bet not only to survive an encounter but be able to send out way more punishment that she could receive. Carriers also have the protection of their group,but let one missle get through and the carrier might not be destroyed but her ability to fight might be compromised. not the case with a battleship.

 

[CharlieZardoz]

Speed is always a factor and they were good to get in close with those smaller Dominion ships. Galaxy and Nebula classes are much slower in comparison and easier to hit.

 

[Dukhat]

Holy five-year thread revive, Batman!

 

[137th Gebirg]

Eh...Mirandas are fine in battle, and are arguably better armed, stockier and less susceptible to dorsal severing than Connies. And if Starfleet will throw an Oberth at a Borg cube (seen briefly in DS9 "Emissary") and have "wings" of tiny Raiders and Peregrine fighters next to capital ships, they'll use anything in a pitched battle if the stakes are high enough.

 

[anh165]

Having countless Mirandas and Excelsior class ships being pwned is an economical use of stock ship models so they can be destroyed easily by the enemy as the storyline requires a depiction of how severe the battle is for the protagonists.

There is no reason to cut and paste a few dozen Sovereign and Galaxy class ships getting blown up for fun as that would confuse casual viewers into thinking it is the Enterprise.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Oh, I don't know - there were plenty of Galaxy-class ships in "A Sacrifice of Budget...er...Angels". Don't forget the USS Odyssey was one of the first casualties of the war and it, too, was a Galaxy class. I think your statement would be particularly true of the Sovereigns (and Intrepids) and, as usual, that was a decision made by the suits due to their constant underestimation of the Trek fan base's general intelligence level. I mean, did they really think that we would all collectively freak out and yell "OMG, they destroyed the Enterprise!! Oh, wait - they destroyed another Enterprise!!! And another!!!!" all in the same battle scene?

Feh...

 

[Crazyewok]

and, as usual, that was a decision made by the suits due to their constant underestimation of the Trek fan base's general intelligence level. I mean, did they really think that we would all collectively freak out and yell "OMG, they destroyed the Enterprise!! Oh, wait - they destroyed another Enterprise!!! And another!!!!" all in the same battle scene?

Feh...

I know this is what pisses me off. 99% are not that stupid and the ones who are? Who cares they will get over it.

This is what annoys me about US TV it has to be designed with the lowset (dumbest) denominator in mind.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Just out of interest, we've seen some spectacular Miranda class destructions. Does any one know, ball park figures, how many of these were before the Federation learnt to defend themselves from Dominion weapons, and how many after?

In the opening shot of the battle in SOA, a Galor is firing at ships passing through and hits a Miranda in the nacelle. Can't say it was destroyed, but it did take a serious shot.

There's another where the Defiant is fleeing the Jem Hadar ships, and in the background, you see two Galors firing repeatedly at a ship and it exploding. Look like a Miranda.

I used to think Mirandas were lame and lame looking (compared to the Enterprise) but after watching SOA, I have new respect for them.

I think they look sleek and tough looking. I liked the way they kept firing all those volleys of torpedoes in order to escort and protect the flag ship.

It looked liked they were getting pretty far and the enemy had to specifically target them to prevent them from getting too far.

Maybe they take a beating because they do a lot of the work. lol

 

[Hawkke]

Can't forget the amount of Excelsiors that got skewered in that war as well. You would think after that war was over they would have been just about about out of both of those ship types and moved forward with more Nebulas and Intrepids instead. :lol

I would really have liked to have seen a third generation Miranda/Nebula type with Sovereign nacelles and saucer.

We did see a fair share of Akiras and and more of the modern ones get torched as well, but I think that footage of the poor Mirandas sticks out more because they were one of the first ones to go in the opening scenes. At least I can say that for me anyway.