Have You Ever Changed Your Mind...

[jayceee]

Then your conclusion that people over thirty do not change their minds is based on false premis!

There's a difference between "many" and "for all".

Over the decades I've had a number of offline intellectual sparring "partners", where we would argue various issues from different perspectives. In these heated discussions, we mutually agree to not dig in our heels too much. But as we got older, I've found that it was harder to convince the other person of a particular point, regardless of the supporting/dissenting evidence.

Whether consciously or unconsciously, we find ourselves digging in our heels more and more as we got older, than when we were younger. We frequently joke that our minds are "calcifying".

 

[Amaris]

I'm 33, and I live by the axiom, "adapt or die."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Whether consciously or unconsciously, we find ourselves digging in our heels more and more as we got older, than when we were younger. We frequently joke that our minds are "calcifying".

I'm sure Red Green has a lot to say about that.

 

[thestrangequark]

Then your conclusion that people over thirty do not change their minds is based on false premis!

There's a difference between "many" and "for all".

Over the decades I've had a number of offline intellectual sparring "partners", where we would argue various issues from different perspectives. In these heated discussions, we mutually agree to not dig in our heels too much. But as we got older, I've found that it was harder to convince the other person of a particular point, regardless of the supporting/dissenting evidence.

Whether consciously or unconsciously, we find ourselves digging in our heels more and more as we got older, than when we were younger. We frequently joke that our minds are "calcifying".

Oh, you misunderstood. I never said your conclusion was wrong. Just that it was based on a false premis. You just can't make the argument that it is pointless to waste one's time trying to change someone's mind and later claim that you were never trying to change his mind in the first place!

I actually agree...as people get older they can have a tendency to become set in their ways.

 

[jayceee]

You just can't make the argument that it is pointless to waste one's time trying to change someone's mind and later claim that you were never trying to change his mind in the first place!

There is a difference between "never" and "rarely".

The getting under a person's skin was my main priority. (When I was a young adult, I found that it was relatively easy to get under the skin of many of my peers).

The other person changing their mind was just a "bonus" if it ever happened, and largely secondary (or even tertiary). Past cases I can recall where the other person indeed changed their mind due to my argument, typically involved showing that there were technical problems in the other person's argument, which were resolved through a mathematical calculation (or proof) I did. This sort of change of mind, happened a lot more frequently when I was younger.

As we got older, I've found that even rigorous mathematical arguments and/or precise experimental data, will not change the other person's mind as easily. This "rising of the bar" for evidence, seems to make it harder to get under the other person's skin and harder to get them to change their mind.

For many people I've known for decades, I've found that it gets harder to get under someone's skin as they got older. (Even people I knew who were hotheads with short fuses when they were younger). As I got older, I've found that attempting to get under somebody's skin has been resembling more and more like an exercise in futility too. (Not just changing other people's minds).

 

[sidious618]

A fair bit but mostly in one direction. I went from believing in God to becoming an agnostic to then becoming an atheist. I was always more Democrat but I've long left that label behind and I'm a far left liberal (for my country) and the older I've gotten the more liberal socially and economically I've become in my worldviews. I've lost almost all patriotic notions and much more favor a world POV as opposed to a country one.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Whether consciously or unconsciously, we find ourselves digging in our heels more and more as we got older, than when we were younger. We frequently joke that our minds are "calcifying".

I'm sure Red Green has a lot to say about that.

You've awkwardly wedged a baseball, Katz's Deli, Corner Gas, and Red Green comment into several discussions all in one day. Now just mention Captain Robau and you can punch your tally card to earn a free P'Zone!

 

[iguana_tonante]

I used to be a leftist (bordering on socialist) first wave feminist. True story. I was so liberal that, when I go back and read old threads, I want to slap some sense into me!

What changed my worldview 180º were a few adamant conservatives who beat me over the head with logic instead of feelings.

Oh, it wasn't easy. I was holding on to my point of view, and my pedagogy, with a death grip. However, I grew tired of living in Plato's cave, and embraced what was being shown to me. I am now a moderate conservative.

As other have said, I had the opposite experience. I grew up moderately conservative (big C conservative, not that neocon crazy shit). But as my perspective expanded, I grew more and more progressive. The more books I read, the more people I met, the more places I visited, the more I thought about society and people, the more I shifted to the left. Today I consider myself a democratic socialist, and the process is still ongoing. When I look back, I see a young man with a narrow worldview, and overly preoccupied with petty issues instead of looking at the big picture. So, yeah. Perspective and all that jazz.

Also, as I got older, I found my beliefs turning away from liberalism and more conservitive. I'm now convinced that it's an age thing. I actually saw it happen to the adults in my life when I was growing up, but, naturally, being young, I didn't understand what I was seeing. But once it started happening to me, I understood it completely.

And of course, my story and many others show that the opposite is just as true. So it definitively isn't an "age thing", except for people who want to paint the opposite stance as childlike and foolish.

My relationship with Christ is one thing I will NOT change. Except to make it better.

I don't think you understand the meaning of "changing your mind".

 

[Tiberius Jim]

When I was a kid and into my teens I was very much against the idea of a person being homosexual. I didn't go out of my way to put anybody down or anything but I had always seen it as "gross" and "wrong" and didn't feel it was right for anyone to be that way. Well, fast forward about 10+ years, going to college in a town like San Francisco and many gay friends and coworkers later, I have become very accepting and supportive of the lifestyle.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

Well I was going to say only religion, but maybe there is one a bit more personal.

Through most of my life since I was 14 I was chronically depressed and passively suicidal. Eventually I came to believe I simply was intrinsically incompetent at life and would never successfully navigate it. I believed there were some people like myself who could not be helped and suicide was a viable and legitimate option for them. Two things changed my mind. One was the very random and unexpected way I met my future wife. The second was being lucky enough to find a program of psychotherapy that is tailored to chronic depressives. Not surprisingly the treatment is based around the fact that chronic depressives see themselves as passive and ineffectual in life. The goal is to see how they actually are doing a lot to create and maintain they're depression and by showing them that they can replace it with other behaviours. I have made a lot of progress in the last few years, and while there is still a very long way to go the days of me considering giving up my life are over for good.

 

[Relayer1]

Well I was going to say only religion, but maybe there is one a bit more personal.

Through most of my life since I was 14 I was chronically depressed and passively suicidal. Eventually I came to believe I simply was intrinsically incompetent at life and would never successfully navigate it. I believed there were some people like myself who could not be helped and suicide was a viable and legitimate option for them. Two things changed my mind. One was the very random and unexpected way I met my future wife. The second was being lucky enough to find a program of psychotherapy that is tailored to chronic depressives. Not surprisingly the treatment is based around the fact that chronic depressives see themselves as passive and ineffectual in life. The goal is to see how they actually are doing a lot to create and maintain they're depression and by showing them that they can replace it with other behaviours. I have made a lot of progress in the last few years, and while there is still a very long way to go the days of me considering giving up my life are over for good.

That's really rather impressive. Congratulations.

 

[Mr Awe]

Every now and then, I have friends who attempt to talk me into investing in a new business, some real estate, other investments, etc ...

When I was younger, I would have wasted their time by challenging their business plan, estimated numbers, etc ... by firing off repeated volleys of hard questions. In the past, I generally saw it as the equivalent of an intellectual sparring match or "bloodsport". (In the end after all the sparring, I would still say no to their requests).

Today, I will just let them know right away that I am not interested at all. I generally now stop myself from entering a "Sheldon Cooper" state of mind, and cut to the chase immediately.

I still troll them if it's Amway. But otherwise, I get what you're saying. Better things to do with time.

On the flip side, have you ever considered the problem may not be with them, but with your approach? People don't like being wrong, even when they are wrong, and they don't generally like confrontation, especially when what you're asking them to confront is reality. It's a quirk of psychology that attacking someone's firmly held beliefs or ideas, even with a solid argument, good evidence, and the absolute truth on your side, will only serve to reinforce their wrong beliefs. If you want to convince someone, you need to feed the evidence and the arguments to them subtly. You need to get them curious, and get them thinking, and allow them to come to the conclusion themselves so they won't have to suffer defeat. It's hard, but I managed it once! And she was over thirty.

That's impressive! My biggest claim to fame (in my own head) is that I once converted a staunch Republican, from a solid Republican family, to becoming a Democrat. That was over 20 years ago and he's still a liberal.

It was mostly with the approach that you described as my goal was not to convert him (didn't even think it would be possible).

I'm sure that'll never happen again!

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

I actually agree...as people get older they can have a tendency to become set in their ways.

That's not true and you're never going to convince me otherwise!

Mr Awe

 

[Gary7]

[...] That same week that this became a major issue, I purchased a copy of "The God Delusion," by Richard Dawkins.

I read it from beginning to end in one night, and I was surprised, because Richard was answering questions I had, and was giving me a different perspective on what I was experiencing; an outside perspective; one I desperately needed if I was to balance myself.

Finally, I had drawn my conclusions, that when it came to religion, I no longer believed. I was not a Christian, I was not a theist, I was an atheist, and at the moment, everything turned upside down, and a split second later became right side up. It felt completely natural. I am an atheist today, though I am also a secular humanist.

Life is about many things, and one of the more important aspects is building your perspective. The best way to build it is to keep an open mind and not be afraid to question anything you've learned before, to treat nothing as absolute (except for maybe a few fundamental things--we do after all need a rock bed of mental security; the Earth will continue to spin and bring the sun back to our land one more day!).

Generally speaking, religion is the antithesis to this way of thinking. There are some denominations that are more flexible than others, but for the most part the predominant ones hold hard and fast to certain beliefs and will not tolerate questioning or reconsideration. That means they are stunted--they cannot grow.

Life is a thing in motion. It changes. It grows. A series of ideas, thoughts, stories, and edicts laid down in a written work is a fixed thing. It's fine for stories not to change. But thoughts and edicts most certainly can. In the Western world, our understanding of Earth sciences (especially biology and physics) was next to nothing some 2000 years ago (there were Asians who understood it much better). So when various premises were laid down in religious texts, they were framed with that limited understanding.

It is now clear with human biology that sexual orientation is not a choice. It is a physical manifestation. We are not exclusively heterosexual. But try to explain that to anyone 2000 years ago, and you would've been proclaimed a follower of Satan. I still cannot get over how backward certain religions are, all in the face of the public eye. And some of them wonder why they are gradually losing more followers every year...



I have changed my mind about a number of things.

• I used to believe in Christianity as it is written, but then I found the holes... and watched people change the way they interpreted the words to suit their own life situations, rather than doing it for truth. I saw a Pastor beloved by many say that grass was the devil's work, because it bears no fruit only taking the soil's nutrients for its own selfish needs and not giving back. WTF?
• I grew up believing that the USA was all about doing good in the world, that it was keeping the Earth's countries from tearing each other up. Now I see it for what it is... and I'm deeply saddened by it, astounded at the corruption that lies within.
• Society is far more primitive than most people care to believe. They are masked by an illusion of technological comforts that makes it seem more civilized than it is. They do not see what is really afoot, and usually because their lives are so full of personal stress and issues that they just don't want to think about it.
• I used to be more optimistic. I'm not a die hard pessimist, but I'm not so certain we're going to make it as a species. I wish there was something I could do to help, but it seems about the only thing that has any real effect is to just try helping others whenever you can.
• Anger and regret are the emotions that should be felt for a moment then discarded quickly thereafter. DO NOT HOLD ONTO THEM for they are emotional poison.

 

[Amaris]

When I was a kid and into my teens I was very much against the idea of a person being homosexual. I didn't go out of my way to put anybody down or anything but I had always seen it as "gross" and "wrong" and didn't feel it was right for anyone to be that way. Well, fast forward about 10+ years, going to college in a town like San Francisco and many gay friends and coworkers later, I have become very accepting and supportive of the lifestyle.

It's amazing what happens when you really get to know people who are gay. Those preconceptions, and assumptions, just go right out the window, and you realize how human they are. I would love it if everyone would have that experience, and come away from it with the knowledge that being gay isn't a disease, or a disorder, but the very same need for love and intimacy that everyone else has.

 

[tomalak301]

I don't consider myself hardcore religious, but I do try to go to church every Sunday (or most Sundays) but I am starting to really be disenfranchised with the Church. I think the question I have is why is the Church that we get in the Media so different from the Church I go to on Sundays. For example, this last Sunday the readings were all about forgiveness, yet in the media, you don't get that one bit. It's all persecution, being judgmental, and, honestly everything against what Jesus Christ stood for. Granted, some of the news might be sensationalized, but truth be told I try not to get into Religious debates here because for some reason I have a strong feeling that I would lose. Whether that is changing my mind or not, I don't know, but in terms of "big issues", that's the biggest one.

 

[Emher]

J., since you brought up your switch from christanity to atheism, I do have that say that even when you where christian and was very open about that, you never ever pushed it on people. I always respected that about you, and part of why I grew to like you.


Now, as for my own self. I used to be hardcore romantic, believing in there being such a thing as "the one", et al. These days I'm more realistic. Oh sure, I like romance and doing something romantic for the objects of my affections (so to say, I don't really objectify people) is not a foreign concept. But I think now that love is able to come in many forms and that surely there can't be just one person out there out of billions to be just for me? One hell of search in that case.


On the case of of homosexuality, I found it "icky" for the longest time. pretty much all the way up to high school when I realized that I developed a crush for a guy and well....I understood that the feelings aren't much different, so why should a personal who is homosexual be much different from someone straight. That and he was really cute. Now I'm pretty securely bisexual, if with a heavy intonation towards women.


I think in general in my past I saw things in much more black and white. Right and wrong. These days I try to see the other argument to a matter. I don't always succeed, especially when my temper gets the better of me. But I try not to judge anyone outright.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

J., since you brought up your switch from christanity to atheism, I do have that say that even when you where christian and was very open about that, you never ever pushed it on people.

And nowadays he doesn't push his "lack of" it, which I also respect.

 

[Amaris]

Life is about many things, and one of the more important aspects is building your perspective. The best way to build it is to keep an open mind and not be afraid to question anything you've learned before, to treat nothing as absolute (except for maybe a few fundamental things--we do after all need a rock bed of mental security; the Earth will continue to spin and bring the sun back to our land one more day!).

Generally speaking, religion is the antithesis to this way of thinking. There are some denominations that are more flexible than others, but for the most part the predominant ones hold hard and fast to certain beliefs and will not tolerate questioning or reconsideration. That means they are stunted--they cannot grow.

Life is a thing in motion. It changes. It grows. A series of ideas, thoughts, stories, and edicts laid down in a written work is a fixed thing. It's fine for stories not to change. But thoughts and edicts most certainly can. In the Western world, our understanding of Earth sciences (especially biology and physics) was next to nothing some 2000 years ago (there were Asians who understood it much better). So when various premises were laid down in religious texts, they were framed with that limited understanding.

It is now clear with human biology that sexual orientation is not a choice. It is a physical manifestation. We are not exclusively heterosexual. But try to explain that to anyone 2000 years ago, and you would've been proclaimed a follower of Satan. I still cannot get over how backward certain religions are, all in the face of the public eye. And some of them wonder why they are gradually losing more followers every year...



I have changed my mind about a number of things.

• I used to believe in Christianity as it is written, but then I found the holes... and watched people change the way they interpreted the words to suit their own life situations, rather than doing it for truth. I saw a Pastor beloved by many say that grass was the devil's work, because it bears no fruit only taking the soil's nutrients for its own selfish needs and not giving back. WTF?
• I grew up believing that the USA was all about doing good in the world, that it was keeping the Earth's countries from tearing each other up. Now I see it for what it is... and I'm deeply saddened by it, astounded at the corruption that lies within.
• Society is far more primitive than most people care to believe. They are masked by an illusion of technological comforts that makes it seem more civilized than it is. They do not see what is really afoot, and usually because their lives are so full of personal stress and issues that they just don't want to think about it.
• I used to be more optimistic. I'm not a die hard pessimist, but I'm not so certain we're going to make it as a species. I wish there was something I could do to help, but it seems about the only thing that has any real effect is to just try helping others whenever you can.
• Anger and regret are the emotions that should be felt for a moment then discarded quickly thereafter. DO NOT HOLD ONTO THEM for they are emotional poison.

You also get hugs.

Yeah, as I've said before, I'd rather see an ugly truth than a beautiful lie.

J., since you brought up your switch from christanity to atheism, I do have that say that even when you where christian and was very open about that, you never ever pushed it on people. I always respected that about you, and part of why I grew to like you.


Now, as for my own self. I used to be hardcore romantic, believing in there being such a thing as "the one", et al. These days I'm more realistic. Oh sure, I like romance and doing something romantic for the objects of my affections (so to say, I don't really objectify people) is not a foreign concept. But I think now that love is able to come in many forms and that surely there can't be just one person out there out of billions to be just for me? One hell of search in that case.


On the case of of homosexuality, I found it "icky" for the longest time. pretty much all the way up to high school when I realized that I developed a crush for a guy and well....I understood that the feelings aren't much different, so why should a personal who is homosexual be much different from someone straight. That and he was really cute. Now I'm pretty securely bisexual, if with a heavy intonation towards women.


I think in general in my past I saw things in much more black and white. Right and wrong. These days I try to see the other argument to a matter. I don't always succeed, especially when my temper gets the better of me. But I try not to judge anyone outright.

Yes! Some of the most beautiful things you can see, happen in shades of grey. I should also thank you for being my friend. You're a good man, Emher.

 

[Sephiroth]

such a loaded question, while fundamentally I have always been "me" never had any crises of faith (athiest), always been straight and nonpolitical (I hate the right for it's greed and the left for it's cowardice) my experiences in life have turned me from a playful and friendly child, one who would be the first to welcome new kids to play to a person who detests most other people, in person anyway. Words are meaningless, and most "people" don't deserve my actions.