Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

[Guy Gardener]

Lets just assume, if we don't view the Borg as complete monsters, that those bits are a detachable zipdrive which store a complete copy of the drones personality and experiences, which makes that act just as sympathetic as when Spock dumped his Katra into McCoy.

Was that rape?

Did Spock rape McCoy?

 

[Melakon]

Well, when McCoy learned what happened, he did call him a green blooded son of a bitch.

 

[Guy Gardener]

"It's his revenge for losing all those arguments."

Some of the best language in the series of movies.

 

[Melakon]

I liked the little background tidbit I read about "Day of the Dove", where James Doohan was given the suggestion to say "Keep your Vulcan hands off me!" as if 'Vulcan' was a certain expletive. Adds a new interpretation every time they're mentioned.

 

[Guy Gardener]

From an engineering perspective, there's probably a lot of resentment that Vulcan's invented everything useful and continue to break new grounds in new fields, leaving nothing for humans to do but be lonely little technicians toiling off on the periphery where Vulcans can't lower themselves to go.

Tuvix has all that Ocampan DNA in him right?

Which means that he has the potential to turn into a Starship flinging ascended being just like Kes in the Gift after having his brain supercharged form conversation with 8472 opening up new telepathic potentials.

1. Kes is a child, who translated the nuances of the conversation with 8472 so poorly that she couldn't tell the difference between friend and foe. Tuvix probably wouldn't have been confused, then easily talked his way into an Aliance with 8472 to destroy the Borg.

2. As a space god who can throw Voyager 10 k light years without any structural damage to the ship, just like Kes... Tuvix, who I might remind you is Captain Tuvix, might have waited around caught a second wind, even if it took him a month, and then kept throwing Voyager across the GALAXY until it hit Earth space.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I am dying here..

That should come with a health and safety warning...

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I'm not sure if having Ocampan DNA in you is the same as having a liter of nanoprobes in you that might suddenly wake up and hear the call of the mothership.

 

[Dal Rassak]

There's a lot of comparison to the 7 of 9 situation. In my opinion the same principle applies both times, and that's why the decision is correct both times:
7 of 9 was born Annika Hanssen, a normal, intact human being. She was assimilated against her will and her entire being subsumed and twisted. Seperating her from the Borg collective is merely restoring her to her natural state. What happened to her should never have happened in the first place. Exactly the same goes for Tuvok and Neelix - seperating them out again restores them to their previous natural state, nothing else. In fact it could be argued that letting the "merged" creature continue to exist, that would in effect have ended the life of two distinct individuals. I still don't see how that could even have been considered.

 

[Deckerd]

I think we've moved on to Janeway causing genocide now. Tuvix pales in comparison.

 

[Sci]

Exactly the same goes for Tuvok and Neelix - seperating them out again restores them to their previous natural state, nothing else. In fact it could be argued that letting the "merged" creature continue to exist, that would in effect have ended the life of two distinct individuals.

Those lives had already ended. Tuvok and Neelix were dead, and Tuvix was killed in order to create new copies of them.

 

[Deckerd]

Those lives had already ended. Tuvok and Neelix were dead, and Tuvix was killed in order to create new copies of them.

Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

 

[Brit]

Those lives had already ended. Tuvok and Neelix were dead, and Tuvix was killed in order to create new copies of them.

Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

You do realize that coercive donation even after death is illegal in places including Canada. In those "opt-in" countries even being dead isn't good enough to take organs without consent.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

From an engineering perspective, there's probably a lot of resentment that Vulcan's invented everything useful and continue to break new grounds in new fields, leaving nothing for humans to do but be lonely little technicians toiling off on the periphery where Vulcans can't lower themselves to go.

Tuvix has all that Ocampan DNA in him right?

Which means that he has the potential to turn into a Starship flinging ascended being just like Kes in the Gift after having his brain supercharged form conversation with 8472 opening up new telepathic potentials.

1. Kes is a child, who translated the nuances of the conversation with 8472 so poorly that she couldn't tell the difference between friend and foe. Tuvix probably wouldn't have been confused, then easily talked his way into an Aliance with 8472 to destroy the Borg.

2. As a space god who can throw Voyager 10 k light years without any structural damage to the ship, just like Kes... Tuvix, who I might remind you is Captain Tuvix, might have waited around caught a second wind, even if it took him a month, and then kept throwing Voyager across the GALAXY until it hit Earth space.

So now Janeway was wrong because she threw away a perfectly good opportunity to both defeat the Borg/gain new friends for the federation and get Voyager home 3 to 4 years earlier and not having to screw up history like its her personal plaything in the process.

 

[R. Star]

Those lives had already ended. Tuvok and Neelix were dead, and Tuvix was killed in order to create new copies of them.

Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

You do realize that coercive donation even after death is illegal in places including Canada. In those "opt-in" countries even being dead isn't good enough to take organs without consent.

You're acting like Tuvix's spirit came up behind Neelix and Tuvok and killed them, and sucked in their organs so he could create a body for himself. He didn't cause the accident. He was the result of the accident.

Furthermore, your argument about coercive donor donations being illegal... well that's a flat argument against Janeway killing Tuvix against his will.

 

[Sci]

Those lives had already ended. Tuvok and Neelix were dead, and Tuvix was killed in order to create new copies of them.

Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

We're worried about sounding "ridiculous" now?

You do realize this is an episode about a machine that turns two people into one, as though it were a magical blender, right?

 

[horatio83]

No idea what this comment is about, what you said is simply correct. One has to ignore fuzzy question of how natural Tuvix's creation is, whether Tuvox and Neelix are dead or a part of Tuvix or whatever. One has to be technical: they are dead, he is alive. And if you want them back you have to kill him.

I am totally fine with Janeway's decision as long as one calls it what it is, murder.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Bullshit, Tuvix is a replicator error that got fixed.

 

[horatio83]

Thanks for illustrating my point about fuzzy questions of whether Tuvix is "natural" or "unnatural" and stuff like that.
There is nothing natural about death and creation at the same time. Pretending that there is a natural order which we can reestablish is pagan thinking and I thought we left this behind us thousands of years ago. Then again people often revert to such thinking when they face catastrophes.

The proper, modern way to approach the Tuvix problem is to first and above all accept what Sci has pointed out. Two people have been merged into one and there is no easy or "natural" way out. No matter what you do, blood is on your hands.

 

[teya]

Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

You do realize that coercive donation even after death is illegal in places including Canada. In those "opt-in" countries even being dead isn't good enough to take organs without consent.

You're acting like Tuvix's spirit came up behind Neelix and Tuvok and killed them, and sucked in their organs so he could create a body for himself. He didn't cause the accident. He was the result of the accident.

Furthermore, your argument about coercive donor donations being illegal... well that's a flat argument against Janeway killing Tuvix against his will.

Bingo.

 

[R. Star]

As I said earlier in the thread. It's human nature to dehumanize their victims to justify their murder. If you can convince your mind that they're somehow lesser than you are it's really not murder somehow. Gov Kodos basically proved as much with that comment.