Star Trek/Star Wars have switched places!

[ryan123450]

So in the 90s Trek books to had play with their toys and then put everything back in the box like they found it, while the Star Wars EU was free to do basically whatever they wanted because post-RotJ was never going to be explored in the films.

Now the sequel trilogy is going to invalidate a vast swath of the EU, and future tie ins will have to tread lightly to avoid being contradicted in a future film. At the same time post-Nemesis Star Trek is a free for all that will almost certainly never be contradicted by future canon. And the movie producers are working to make sure all their tie-ins are in continuity with the films, basically mimicking the effect of the claimed 'official-ness' of the old Star Wars EU.

I know the details aren't exactly the same, and that I'm simplifying to suit my comparison, but basically the tie-in continuity situations of Trek/Wars have now switched places!

 

[F. King Daniel]

Serves everyone right who ever slammed Trek novels with, "...at least Star Wars novels are canon!"

At the same time post-Nemesis Star Trek is a free for all that will almost certainly never be contradicted by future canon.

I'm actually quite curious how the Primeline novels will react to Into Darkness. Will future novelverse depictions of Earth and Qo'nos incorporate stuff from the new movie versions? Especially with regard to future Earth - of which we canonically know so little.

 

[zarkon]

Can't say I care too much. The nineties glory days of SWlit are long gone. NJO pretty much killed it for me, all I read now is whatever Zahn puts out.

 

[shapeshifter]

Serves everyone right who ever slammed Trek novels with, "...at least Star Wars novels are canon!"

At the same time post-Nemesis Star Trek is a free for all that will almost certainly never be contradicted by future canon.

I'm actually quite curious how the Primeline novels will react to Into Darkness. Will future novelverse depictions of Earth and Qo'nos incorporate stuff from the new movie versions? Especially with regard to future Earth - of which we canonically know so little.

That's a really good question. I know from reading your comments you are no stranger to the Prime Novelverse, how do you feel about it?

Me, if I pick up a prime universe novel then I expect to have threads of the prime universe present. I'd be pretty off-set to be reading along and suddenly the characters Noika phone rings. Point is I'd rather the two universe identity's be kept separate. [/butthurt]

 

[Christopher]

^But they're not completely separate universes. The premise is that the Abramsverse split from the Primeverse in 2233, so anything that was part of the universe before that date should be part of both.

Sure, not everybody likes every part of the Trek franchise. But liking the stories shouldn't matter. Tie-in creators have always drawn on worldbuilding ideas from all over the franchise. Heck, I've based novels on elements from episodes and films I didn't like at all, because the ideas were useful, and because it's all one reality for better or worse. Ideas are ideas.

 

[PKS8304]

This conversation reminds me of a recent conversation I had with my friend about the show Enterprise. He said he decided not to watch it because it bothered him that a series set before TOS, would have technology that seemed more advanced that what Kirk and crew are using later.
He didnt like what the writers were attempting, in showing a closer to realistic look at where Star Trek future would be from present day based on the technology of the day.

The error in his logic is that the show in no way is saying that the tech Kirk and crew use later is less advanced than Archers. This is an area where as the viewer you have to look through shutters to a degree. It all comes down to the production of the show and the year it was produced.

Things available in 2000 are obviously more advanced that what was on hand in the 60s. You have to choose to not look at how outdated a device is on Enterprise because in the world of Star Trek its further advanced that what is being used on Archer's Enterprise even if aesthetically it looks more advanced.

How the viewer or reader chooses to approach the material is going to affect the experience.

Watching the new movies, it establishes that Spock goes to a parallel universe. So logically as long as we dont see Spock around in the books after a certain point, there should be no continuity glitches. That said, seeing how the Star Trek universe unfolds in the movies, ideas might appeal to the writers of the books and being applied, in most cases getting from point a to b isnt as important as whats at b when you get there as long as your not sidetracking to x along the way which only confuses things.

An example of what I mean is the whole thing about the Klingons.

As funny as the scene with Worf where he is confronting about the TOS Klingons being so different and him saying "We dont talk about it" that scene was frustrating to a degree because until that moment you just accepted that by the time the Motion Picture came around the budget was bigger so the Klingons got to look cooler. Now though because it was acknowledged in universe there had to be an explanation.

There has to be a line where you just enjoy whats there and not overthink it.

If nu universe elements creep into the prime novels, as long as the story is well written and the characters are true to whats established or changing in a story structure I think the reader needs to just go with it.

Im not trying to tell people what to do but I do feel that in the case of my friend, it can be detrimental to enjoying what you like, as he wont watch Enterprise, which is his perogative but I feel is for the wrong reasons.

I'll stop rambeling now...

 

[Christopher]

The error in his logic is that the show in no way is saying that the tech Kirk and crew use later is less advanced than Archers. This is an area where as the viewer you have to look through shutters to a degree. It all comes down to the production of the show and the year it was produced.

Things available in 2000 are obviously more advanced that what was on hand in the 60s. You have to choose to not look at how outdated a device is on Enterprise because in the world of Star Trek its further advanced that what is being used on Archer's Enterprise even if aesthetically it looks more advanced.

Exactly. The makers of TOS didn't want it to look like it was made with 1960s technology. They wanted to make it look as futuristic as possible, but they were limited by the technology and budget they had available. What they showed us was just a suggestion of an underlying "reality" that was supposed to be more futuristic. And that's why they didn't hesitate to update the hell out of everything when TMP came along and they finally had a big budget to work with. Had Roddenberry himself had the chance to do a prequel to TOS with more money and higher technology available to create it with, he absolutely would've made it look more advanced. Given the chance to redo TOS itself, he would've done the same. He wouldn't have confused the limits of execution for the underlying intent the way many fans do. That's just too literal-minded.

And really, if you look past the details of execution and focus on the underlying design, TOS does look more futuristic than ENT. ENT-era technology looks more similar to our own, has more recognizable limitations. The consoles on the bridge have cooling fans in them. There are handholds everywhere in case of artificial-gravity failure. It's got all sorts of practical details like that. TOS design is more abstract, more minimalist, more removed from recognizable, practical design. And so that gives it the flavor of a more sophisticated, perhaps alien-influenced technology based on principles that our technology hasn't devised yet.

 

[F. King Daniel]

That's a really good question. I know from reading your comments you are no stranger to the Prime Novelverse, how do you feel about it?

Me, if I pick up a prime universe novel then I expect to have threads of the prime universe present. I'd be pretty off-set to be reading along and suddenly the characters Noika phone rings. Point is I'd rather the two universe identity's be kept separate. [/butthurt]

I think it'll come down to the execution. 2007's Star Trek Academy: Collision Course already featured a version of Earth similar to what the new movies depict (with communicators as phones and flying cars), although that was based on an unsold pitch for a new young Kirk/Spock/academy TV series and didn't quite ring true as a direct prequel to TOS. It was also a century prior to TNG, so the world may have changed quite a bit in the interim. I can't quite picture Picard or Worf riding a bus around San Francisco or Riker stuck in traffic in his flying car, but what would really be the alternative? They surely can't have walked or beamed everywhere in their whole lives.

As for Qo'nos, the Countdown to Darkness #4 preview has a panel showing the TNG Klingon city matte painting. I can believe that it's part of the enourmous machine city we see Kirk and Spock flying their shuttle through in the Into Darkness trailers. And it may be coincidence, but all that thick cloud cover made me think of The Final Reflection's version of the Klingon homeworld.

 

[iarann]

They wanted to make it look as futuristic as possible, but they were limited by the technology and budget they had available.

I remember watching The Cage recently and being shocked when Spock basically uses a Kinect to control a slide presentation on the bridge. I guess when they got the go ahead for the series, they had to actually tone down how futuristic everything was because of budget concerns. Suddenly, cool actually futuristic technology was replaced by candy style buttons all over the place.

 

[Relayer1]

If nu universe elements creep into the prime novels, as long as the story is well written and the characters are true to whats established or changing in a story structure I think the reader needs to just go with it.

I'd EXPECT influences from the JJverse films to affect the prime universe novels. If there is no in universe reason a city/vessel/race/character should look totally different after the timeline split, you have a canon design applicable to both...

 

[Christopher]

I remember watching The Cage recently and being shocked when Spock basically uses a Kinect to control a slide presentation on the bridge.

That's what it looked like because of the framing and editing, and it's what I always used to believe was the case, but it turns out there are some deleted shots revealing that Spock was actually cuing a crewwoman seated next to him to manually change the slides. Kind of disillusioning.

I guess when they got the go ahead for the series, they had to actually tone down how futuristic everything was because of budget concerns. Suddenly, cool actually futuristic technology was replaced by candy style buttons all over the place.

No, the buttons were pretty much the same, although they became more numerous. The main change was that the neat rear-projected displays in the wall screens had to be replaced with fake screens of backlit astronomical art (which was often visibly wrinkled).

 

[JD]

Me, if I pick up a prime universe novel then I expect to have threads of the prime universe present. I'd be pretty off-set to be reading along and suddenly the characters Noika phone rings. Point is I'd rather the two universe identity's be kept separate. [/butthurt]

I think it'll come down to the execution. 2007's Star Trek Academy: Collision Course already featured a version of Earth similar to what the new movies depict (with communicators as phones and flying cars), although that was based on an unsold pitch for a new young Kirk/Spock/academy TV series and didn't quite ring true as a direct prequel to TOS. It was also a century prior to TNG, so the world may have changed quite a bit in the interim. I can't quite picture Picard or Worf riding a bus around San Francisco or Riker stuck in traffic in his flying car, but what would really be the alternative? They surely can't have walked or beamed everywhere in their whole lives.
[/QUOTE]
Actually there is what looks like it could be a flying car in this shot from All Good Things... At least that what I've always thought it was, because it doesn't really look like any of the shuttles we saw anywhere else in the series.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I don't remember that! Data driving a flying car on future-Earth just made my head explode a little bit. That shot looks eerily close to the opening of Into Darkness, where Noel Clarke and Nazneen Contractor are driving to the hospital.

 

[Christopher]

We've seen hovercars in Prime-universe canon before: on Vulcan in "Yesteryear," and outside Archer's window in "Shockwave." Tom Paris mentioned in "The 37s" that hovercars came into general use "about a century" after the 1936 truck they found. And Ben Sisko's biological mother died in a "hovercraft" accident. And there have been many references in the novels and comics to hovercars, skimmers, and the like.

 

[Mage]

Now the sequel trilogy is going to invalidate a vast swath of the EU

Says who? No one knows what the new trilogy will be about.

 

[Christopher]

Now the sequel trilogy is going to invalidate a vast swath of the EU

Says who? No one knows what the new trilogy will be about.

Says common sense. Typically, tie-in novels and comics are read by maybe 1-2% of the filmgoing or TV-watching audience. Nobody's going to avoid making a movie the way they want to just because a tiny fraction of the audience will find it contradicts something they've read. Tie-ins just aren't that important in the grand scheme of things -- and I'm saying that as a tie-in writer. As a rule, tie-ins follow the films' lead, not the other way around. The canon can draw on ideas from the tie-ins when it's useful, but it can also contradict them when it's useful, because the canon always takes priority. One shouldn't expect any canon to be constrained by its tie-ins.

Besides, we've already seen The Clone Wars contradict the EU where its portrayal of Mandalore was concerned, not to mention contradicting the previous Tartakovsky Clone Wars animated series. Heck, canon contradicting tie-ins goes all the way back to The Empire Strikes Back -- since there was an early Marvel comic with a flashback alleging that Obi-Wan had once gone on a mission with both Darth Vader and Luke's father. Not to mention the stuff in Splinter of the Mind's Eye that was pretty much ignored in later films. Heck, the prequels even ignored or contradicted some details from the original trilogy, and the special editions of the OT changed things in the movies themselves. Even canon isn't immune from contradiction, in SW or any other long-running fictional franchise. It's always the prerogative of new works to overwrite elements of earlier works.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Going back to Abramsverse elements sneaking into the novelverse, it would be cool to find out if that supervolcano erupted on Nibiru. Or did Pike's Enterprise, or maybe another starship, prevent it in the prime-universe too?

 

[PKS8304]

It looks like one of the Nu Trek novels put into limbo after the 2009 movie was about Spock adapting to being in a new universe.

To get into his head and see how the two universes are different and alike would be....

"fascinating"

 

[Therin of Andor]

Actually there is what looks like it could be a flying car in this shot from All Good Things... At least that what I've always thought it was, because it doesn't really look like any of the shuttles we saw anywhere else in the series.

I seem to recall a flying car in "Yesteryear" (TAS)?

 

[Christopher]

^As I said in post #14.