How many reset buttons?

[Guy Gardener]

What about season 3 of Buffy with the Mayor?

(The Mayor was mentioned in Season 2. .. Shut UP!)

That blew my mind.

Each season there after designed to follow the rise and fall of an imminent threat.

Season to season, everything changed so catalytically with Babylon 5 that they needed to do-over the credits to reflect the new show, but Voyager? Those credits didn't man anything, and the show didn't mean anything other we're wandering through space, how cool. The last four seasons of stories (double episodes count as one story.) could have aired in any order and made almost perfect sense.

 

[exodus]

What hasn't been pointed out in this thread is that both TOS and TNG aired during a time on tv that procedural shows were the norm and only cheap weekly soap operas, that were looked down upon, did serialization. That's why that being episodic is never held against TOS and TNG.

But Voyager and the first two seasons of Enterprise followed directly after DS9, which focused very much on serialization, feeling like a let down since they went back to the episodic format. TV had changed around them but they refused to do the same. That's a big reason why ENT's ratings fell and that show ended up getting cancelled.

Speak the truth and it shall set you free!!!!!!

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think the issue is really that there are 3-4 million people who would rather have serialized shows and 20-30 million people who would rather not have to remember things week to week. Those 3-4 million happen to be in the most valuable consumer demographic, so we occasionally get awesome serial shows like DS9 and Galactica.

Viacom wanted Star Trek to appeal both to the 3-4 million who love shows like Galactica and the 20-30 million who love shows like CSI, and failed on both accounts.

 

[The Overlord]

B5 wasn't well-known enough or financially successful enough for Paramount to allow the same thing for one of their flagship shows.

If they'd waited until DS9 was done then VOY would've been better off.

What about X-Files, that was a popular and a serialized story that was on the air before Voyager. The thing is the 90s when serialized stories became popular, so Star Trek not getting on board made it seem behind the times.

Plus Voyager's story demands serialization more then TOS and TNG, Janeway should have work harder to gain the trust of her crew then Picard or kirk, considering a quarter of her crew is Maquis, that should have a story arc. Also Voyager should not repaired the next episode when it took damage, considering Voyager didn't have access to Starbases. Voyager should have looked way different by the end of the series then it did in the beginning.

 

[exodus]

If kids were that much cheaper, I'm amazed Voyager didn't enter a section of the galaxy where a weird virus killed all the adults.



The problem starts well before they hire their actors. In the writers room, there has to be some sort of passion where some one says "I have this amazing idea for a character that i really think that we can run with for a couple episodes who... "

And then Berman throws a shoe at them.

Exodus, it's not Jeri vs Jenny, but what did they do with the Cullah/Seska money?

They would have at least 2 or 3 stories written after they soap boxed around ideas. They wouldn't use a story that required that character in any major part, second choice is they'd simply rewrite it into a new character or it give back to a main one. I have a funny feeling Neelix' part in "Blood Fever" was actually meant for a character like Carey. He was totally the cliche red shirt in that ep. I have a feeling that Lindsey Ballard might have been a rewrite character too.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Bloodfever was one of the episodes they forbade Garret from participating in.

Even with that guy paired off the episode fiscally, allowing the production team another 27 grand to play with they still had Neelix walking around like Wallpaper?

 

[exodus]

Bloodfever was one of the episodes they forbade Garret from participating in.

Even with that guy paired off the episode fiscally, allowing the production team another 27 grand to play with they still had Neelix walking around like Wallpaper?

Star Trek is one of the highest costing shows production wise on TV. They aren't squirreling away money, it's getting spent on other production costs. Contractors and EFX artist ain't free.

Babylon 5 changed everything.

Babylon who?

I've never heard anybody in the industry say "I'd like to thank Babylon 5 for...." B5 had good story arc's but the writing within itself was sloppy. There were characters in the opening credits that ended up serving no purpose. Deleen went from a women of great wisdom and mystery, too the poodle in Sheradon's lap. I was waiting to see a leash around her neck.

DS9 broke their 1950s cop show paradigm and tried play the long game like... You know the DS9 reset button that really pisses me off still every moment of my life, the first two episodes of season seven, have some really interesting introductions of Dax to all and sundry and then some absolute conflict with worf and I'm waiting for some escalation the next week, but in stead it's Take me out to the Holodeck and they're all buddies playing baseball.

Why would you bring your personal issues to a baseball game?

 

[exodus]

What about X-Files, that was a popular and a serialized story that was on the air before Voyager. The thing is the 90s when serialized stories became popular, so Star Trek not getting on board made it seem behind the times.

Comparing X-Files to Star Trek is like comparing Buck Rodgers to Supernatural

Janeway should have work harder to gain the trust of her crew then Picard or kirk, considering a quarter of her crew is Maquis,

Chakotay destroyed their ship, remember?
So they had no supplies, no food, no place to sleep & no weapons.
Someone honest is offering them all of that and more as long as the do an honest days work...........and this person still needs to gain you're trust?
They were never treated as political prisoners or enemies. Why bite the hand that's feeding you considering you have no other options?
You're 75 thousand light years from home with nothing to your name. What's more important, your political views or a hot plate of food? Isn't that more believable?

I think the issue is really that there are 3-4 million people who would rather have serialized shows and 20-30 million people who would rather not have to remember things week to week. Those 3-4 million happen to be in the most valuable consumer demographic, so we occasionally get awesome serial shows like DS9 and Galactica.

Viacom wanted Star Trek to appeal both to the 3-4 million who love shows like Galactica and the 20-30 million who love shows like CSI, and failed on both accounts.

How could Viacom want a show to appeal to a demographic audience of shows that weren't in production yet? Voyager was in production well before nuBSG was even a thought.
The show that was Voyager's biggest competition at the time was Xena. Seven's catsuit makes a little more sense from that perspective.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Star Trek is one of the highest costing shows production wise on TV. They aren't squirreling away money, it's getting spent on other production costs. Contractors and EFX artist ain't free.

They had a budget, the sfx was probably mostly done, and then they fired Wang for a couple episodes. It was magical found money that could have gone anywhere if everything hadn't already been paid for... But after the rewrite it was probably used to pay for Alexander Enberg to pretend he was a full cast member that week.

 

[exodus]

Star Trek is one of the highest costing shows production wise on TV. They aren't squirreling away money, it's getting spent on other production costs. Contractors and EFX artist ain't free.

They had a budget, the sfx was probably mostly done, and then they fired Wang for a couple episodes. It was magical found money that could have gone anywhere if everything hadn't already been paid for... But after the rewrite it was probably used to pay for Alexander Enberg to pretend he was a full cast member that week.

Garrett wasn't fired, he was suspended.
He's still under contract to receive payment.
The Screen Actors Guild is a Union.

 

[The Overlord]

Comparing X-Files to Star Trek is like comparing Buck Rodgers to Supernatural

There are differences, but X-Files proved that an ongoing story can work in a TV show.

Chakotay destroyed their ship, remember?
So they had no supplies, no food, no place to sleep & no weapons.
Someone honest is offering them all of that and more as long as the do an honest days work...........and this person still needs to gain you're trust?
They were never treated as political prisoners or enemies. Why bite the hand that's feeding you considering you have no other options?
You're 75 thousand light years from home with nothing to your name. What's more important, your political views or a hot plate of food? Isn't that more believable?l

Just because Chakoty and the Maquis don't have much of a choice doesn't mean they have to be happy about. There should have been more resistance and push back against Star Fleet regulations and frankly I think a lot of the Maquis would blame Janeway for being stranded in the DQ. What's the point of having the Maquis on the ship if there is not going to be any conflict? It makes Janeway look like a total Mary Sue if all those Maquis people will simply defer to her right away.

 

[lurok]

... You know the DS9 reset button that really pisses me off still every moment of my life, the first two episodes of season seven, have some really interesting introductions of Dax to all and sundry and then some absolute conflict with worf and I'm waiting for some escalation the next week, but in stead it's Take me out to the Holodeck and they're all buddies playing baseball.

Of course some bile did ooze up 3/4s of a season later after Ezi and Worf slept together.

So true. Bar that run of final episodes, I don't think DS9 S7 that great.

...Janeway should have work harder to gain the trust of her crew then Picard or kirk, considering a quarter of her crew is Maquis, that should have a story arc.

The writers/showrunners should have tried harder but I did feel there was a sense in first seasons of crew trying to bond. That one with Tuvox and the three Maquis recalcitrants, the mutiny holoprogram, and later Suder.

 

[sonak]

Comparing X-Files to Star Trek is like comparing Buck Rodgers to Supernatural

There are differences, but X-Files proved that an ongoing story can work in a TV show.

Chakotay destroyed their ship, remember?
So they had no supplies, no food, no place to sleep & no weapons.
Someone honest is offering them all of that and more as long as the do an honest days work...........and this person still needs to gain you're trust?
They were never treated as political prisoners or enemies. Why bite the hand that's feeding you considering you have no other options?
You're 75 thousand light years from home with nothing to your name. What's more important, your political views or a hot plate of food? Isn't that more believable?l

Just because Chakoty and the Maquis don't have much of a choice doesn't mean they have to be happy about. There should have been more resistance and push back against Star Fleet regulations and frankly I think a lot of the Maquis would blame Janeway for being stranded in the DQ. What's the point of having the Maquis on the ship if there is not going to be any conflict? It makes Janeway look like a total Mary Sue if all those Maquis people will simply defer to her right away.

yeah, I agree with this second point. The fact that Janeway basically stranded all these people out there should have served as more of a source of conflict. Instead, except for a few episodes, it was largely forgotten so they could show everyone on the ship falling in line behind the captain.

 

[Trekker82]

Comparing X-Files to Star Trek is like comparing Buck Rodgers to Supernatural

There are differences, but X-Files proved that an ongoing story can work in a TV show.

Chakotay destroyed their ship, remember?
So they had no supplies, no food, no place to sleep & no weapons.
Someone honest is offering them all of that and more as long as the do an honest days work...........and this person still needs to gain you're trust?
They were never treated as political prisoners or enemies. Why bite the hand that's feeding you considering you have no other options?
You're 75 thousand light years from home with nothing to your name. What's more important, your political views or a hot plate of food? Isn't that more believable?l

Just because Chakoty and the Maquis don't have much of a choice doesn't mean they have to be happy about. There should have been more resistance and push back against Star Fleet regulations and frankly I think a lot of the Maquis would blame Janeway for being stranded in the DQ. What's the point of having the Maquis on the ship if there is not going to be any conflict? It makes Janeway look like a total Mary Sue if all those Maquis people will simply defer to her right away.

yeah, I agree with this second point. The fact that Janeway basically stranded all these people out there should have served as more of a source of conflict. Instead, except for a few episodes, it was largely forgotten so they could show everyone on the ship falling in line behind the captain.

I thought that the episode Learning Curve covered it pretty well (addressing the conflict).

 

[exodus]

Comparing X-Files to Star Trek is like comparing Buck Rodgers to Supernatural

There are differences, but X-Files proved that an ongoing story can work in a TV show.

Chakotay destroyed their ship, remember?
So they had no supplies, no food, no place to sleep & no weapons.
Someone honest is offering them all of that and more as long as the do an honest days work...........and this person still needs to gain you're trust?
They were never treated as political prisoners or enemies. Why bite the hand that's feeding you considering you have no other options?
You're 75 thousand light years from home with nothing to your name. What's more important, your political views or a hot plate of food? Isn't that more believable?l

Just because Chakoty and the Maquis don't have much of a choice doesn't mean they have to be happy about. There should have been more resistance and push back against Star Fleet regulations and frankly I think a lot of the Maquis would blame Janeway for being stranded in the DQ. What's the point of having the Maquis on the ship if there is not going to be any conflict? It makes Janeway look like a total Mary Sue if all those Maquis people will simply defer to her right away.

yeah, I agree with this second point. The fact that Janeway basically stranded all these people out there should have served as more of a source of conflict. Instead, except for a few episodes, it was largely forgotten so they could show everyone on the ship falling in line behind the captain.

Chakotay stranded his own people there as well.
Isn't he as much at fault as she is?
Why would the Maquis be pissed at Janeway and not at him as well?
Besides, didn't DS9's "Maquis" state the Maquis weren't enemies of the Federation and wanted no conflict with them? Isn't that what Cal kept telling Sisko? Didn't Kira also tell Sisko that the Maquis weren't the aggressors and we discovered by the end of the 2 parter that it was the Cardassians manipulating the whole thing?
Adm. Nycheiv called them "Citizens of the Federation".

What's the point of having the Maquis on the ship if there is not going to be any conflict?

Because they knew how to survive with very little resources. They proved they could survive in hostile conditions. Being poor, hungry and hunted was a daily way of life for them.

 

[The Overlord]

I thought that the episode Learning Curve covered it pretty well (addressing the conflict).

That was one episode, there should have been several episodes that dealt with Maquis Federation conflict. There were only a handful of episodes that touched upon this plot point at all during the entire series.

 

[Guy Gardener]

In Learning curve the Maquis should have let Tuvok die in that fire, and then spent the next three episodes trying to cover up their complicity, followed by a trial after they're caught, and then complete aftermath of beng found innocent where the Fleet crew keep being passive aggressive, or they're found Guilty and the rest of the Maquis start hoarding weapons and food waiting for when Security comes for them too.

Of course Tuvok put his katra into a bioneural gel pack, so after everyone gets their shit together, they'll notice that the ship is haunted, and the Vulcan can have a magical resurrection...

 

[exodus]

I thought that the episode Learning Curve covered it pretty well (addressing the conflict).

That was one episode, there should have been several episodes that dealt with Maquis Federation conflict. There were only a handful of episodes that touched upon this plot point at all during the entire series.

Ok, then lets just say for the sake of argument there was conflict between both parties and political views were more important than survival. Then what exactly IYO would have been the key moment that would have made them both quit being adversaries?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Just because Chakoty and the Maquis don't have much of a choice doesn't mean they have to be happy about. There should have been more resistance and push back against Star Fleet regulations and frankly I think a lot of the Maquis would blame Janeway for being stranded in the DQ. What's the point of having the Maquis on the ship if there is not going to be any conflict? It makes Janeway look like a total Mary Sue if all those Maquis people will simply defer to her right away.

While some of them had starfleet backgrounds I'm going to assume most of them didn't. If this had happened to me and I was suddenly forced to wear a uniform and follow military protocols and regulations, slot into a military system I would have a freaking heart attack and after that I'd be looking for any possible way to exist in that hell and not have to put up with too much of it. I would not make a very good reluctant recruit and I'm not sure I would ever get used to it.

I'm thinking the Maquis were full of anti-authority misfit types for whom fitting into starfleet would be very difficult.

 

[lurok]

One of the things I liked about Good Shepherd is that it showed even some non-Maquis starfleet had trouble fitting in.