Table Manners...WTF?

[Green Lantern]

While at work today, we got into a random discussion about proper table etiquette -- using the correct utensil for certain types of food...proper place settings...keeping your elbows off the table -- and we all realized we have no idea WHY we do any of these things.

Why is a salad fork a salad fork? Why can't I use my regular dinner fork for both my salad AND my dinner?

Why can't I put my elbows on the table? Why is it considered rude? Do my elbows offend you? Are my elbows somehow dirtier than the rest of my forearm?

Who the hell invented this shit?

I think it's a load of crap too. It was odviously invented by the upper class at some point. It's a load of crap though. I think the elbow thing was made because if people kept putting elbows on a table, eventually the polish would rub off or the table would wear a bit, so that's probably why putting your elbows on a table was connsidered rude. But nowadays, it's just kept in so rich snobs can feel good about themselves.

 

[auntiehill]

Manner are a way for everyone to be comfortable together, as in "don't be disgusting and gross-out every one around you." If someone is using "etiquette" to embarrass people (Oh my GOD, you used the wrong fork!), that in itself is bad manners.

My parents practically bludgeoned us with table manners when we were kids but I'm a bit glad they did. It's about being respectful to people around you. You wait for everyone to have their food before you start eating, you thank the cook, you ask for something rather than reaching across in someone's face and you don't stay too late. Just be respectful of other people and have a little dignity; people will think you have FABULOUS manners, even if you use the wrong fork.

The details aren't all that important; it's how you conduct yourself and treat people around you that's important.

 

[Kelthaz]

Everything that comes after like having 3 different sets of forks for every course or from which side the dinner is served is not a world i liive in and don't believe i want to.

I agree with this. When you're eating dinner, especially when you're at a restaurant, it's important to be respectful of others and to create a pleasant atmosphere, but that has nothing to do with following silly arbitrary rules. A fork is a fork.

 

[trekkiedane]

/.../ If someone is using "etiquette" to embarrass people (Oh my GOD, you used the wrong fork!), that in itself is bad manners.

BINGO!

It is bad manners to comment on other peoples (bad?) manners. -And therein lies the whole truth about the thing

 

[Paulcpick]

I don't remember being taught the more involved rules, but I haven't seen the one that I remember the most, that seems to have fallen by the wayside, and that being that its always bad manners to wear a hat at the dinner table. Don't really know where it comes from, one would assume its a holdover from turn of the 20th century when almost everyone wore hats, outside of that tho, I don't know. Seems like this one has fell away also, sadly, because people eating with a hat on actually does bug me....

 

[RobertVA]

While I'll I'll admit to not frequenting the classier restaurants in my neighborhood, the full service (order taken at the table, food served to the able on dishes that will be washed and reused, tips expected) are pretty deficient about places to put a hat or cold weather outerwear (coats, sweaters, umbrellas), especially if all the seats at the booth or table are occupied.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I don't remember being taught the more involved rules, but I haven't seen the one that I remember the most, that seems to have fallen by the wayside, and that being that its always bad manners to wear a hat at the dinner table. Don't really know where it comes from, one would assume its a holdover from turn of the 20th century when almost everyone wore hats, outside of that tho, I don't know. Seems like this one has fell away also, sadly, because people eating with a hat on actually does bug me....

I never wear a hat inside, except if going into a freezer room, or the heating breaks up in the middle of winter, etc. It's not just bad manners, it's stupid.

I give some leeway for religious headdress, but I give them the bad eye because they feel their silly rules are more important than my silly rules.

 

[RoJoHen]

It's not just bad manners, it's stupid.

Some people just like wearing hats. Nothing stupid about it.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Of course it's stupid, because I don't do it.

Bad choice of words on my part, yes. I was going to use "silly" but I wanted to use it in the next sentence and I disliked the repetition. It's no more silly as any of the other thousands of "rules" about manners and clothes: some people abide, some people don't. No real consequences except in the opinion of others, something you are free to disregard. It's no different than wearing your trunks over your trousers, for example. You can do it if you want, but I think it would be quite silly. But as with religious headdress, I allow for some leeway in this case if you are a superhero.

 

[Pingfah]

You should never stab people with a fish fork. That's uncouth. And vaguely insulting.

I'm sure I must have told the story of how I inserted a cocktail stick into the seat cushion of the kid next to me at a Birthday Party dinner, and then watched while he sat down on it.

I have never seen someone shoot up in the air screaming in quite such a fashion before. I was persona non grata that day, I can tell you.

 

[SmoothieX]

I was once at a fairly nice restaurant with my parents on vacation as a kid. Not a jacket and tie place, but business casual dress was expected. I was never allowed to order off a kiddie menu, and was expected to show the best manners that could be expected out of a 7 or 8 year old.

At the next table over, a kid took his napkin, lit it using the centerpiece candle, and set the table cloth on fire. He then screamed OH SHIT! when it started to really cook. His parents were livid, and I'm pretty sure the authorities still haven't found the body.

 

[marillion]

I don't remember being taught the more involved rules, but I haven't seen the one that I remember the most, that seems to have fallen by the wayside, and that being that its always bad manners to wear a hat at the dinner table. Don't really know where it comes from, one would assume its a holdover from turn of the 20th century when almost everyone wore hats, outside of that tho, I don't know. Seems like this one has fell away also, sadly, because people eating with a hat on actually does bug me....

I never wear a hat inside, except if going into a freezer room, or the heating breaks up in the middle of winter, etc. It's not just bad manners, it's stupid.

I give some leeway for religious headdress, but I give them the bad eye because they feel their silly rules are more important than my silly rules.

I had a 7th grade teacher who would confiscate a hat if you wore it to class and would only give it back once a parent came to get it. In college, one of my instructors insisted that all hats be removed as well, or the class would not go forward until it was.

It's an old English custom that has its roots in doffing or tipping one's hat to a lady. While most of us wear hats or ball caps now to keep the sun off our scalps or (like me - GUILTY) covering up one's thinning hair, hats were worn extensively by all classes in the past, partly as a method of good hygene... A hat kept your hair and scalp clean from industrial soot from factories as well as household chimnies. We forget that wood and coal were the primary source of heat and power and so the skies were literally filled with smoke and soot. Given that this was common back when most people only took one bath a week (if you were lucky), this was important.

So it became custom for men to tip their hats when greeting a lady as a matter of politness. My opinion here, but it seems logical, that the custom of always removing a hat when indoors grew out of not wanting to have soot and other dirt from the hat get on furniture or the dinner table (that being the polite thing to do).

I never wear a hat at the table, thanks to my mom and her manners, and she even got really bothered if I continued to wear a hat inside, period.

 

[Holdfast]

While I'll I'll admit to not frequenting the classier restaurants in my neighborhood, the full service (order taken at the table, food served to the able on dishes that will be washed and reused, tips expected) are pretty deficient about places to put a hat or cold weather outerwear (coats, sweaters, umbrellas), especially if all the seats at the booth or table are occupied.

Over here, most reasonably nice places will offer to hang your stuff in their cloakroom. If they're forgetful or don't seem to have that option, ask them anyway and they'll usually oblige. Obviously you have to be comfortable enough with the place to trust them to take your stuff...

Quite a few places I know have umbrellas stands/buckets near the door. Again, to be comfortable using them, you have to be confident enough that the clientele won't "accidentally" take the wrong brolly when they leave.

Regarding the lack of hat racks in restaurants, I believe that they used to be more common but as very few people regularly wear (proper) hats these days, they've largely disappeared. I occasionally wear a panama in summer and a trilby in winter and it's annoying if there's nowehere to put them. Fortunately, at the places I go to the most often, there's somewhere to hang stuff like this.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I occasionally wear a panama in summer and a trilby in winter and it's annoying if there's nowehere to put them. Fortunately, at the places I go to the most often, there's somewhere to hang stuff like this.

Tell me about that. I love hats, so sometimes it's a real nuisance to always having to worry where you can hang them.

 

[Timewalker]

One reason for "no elbows on the table" that nobody has suggested is this: it helps lessen the chance of getting your sleeves in the food.

Multiple forks, spoons, etc. is ridiculous. It wastes space, time, and energy with placement, figuring out which one to use, and adds phosphates to the environment because of the need to wash the damn things. One fork will do me nicely. In fact, the restaurants I eat in don't even offer spoons unless you're having soup or drinking coffee/tea. If you want a spoon, you need to ask for one, and that's fine with me.

I'm a slow eater, and I don't care how many people may be waiting for a table. It's just rude for wait staff to try to hurry a diner along - haven't I paid for a meal out, just like anybody else? If they want me out that bad, they will have to give me a doggy bag - and not expect a tip.

However, I mostly prefer to get my food to go, whether it's Chinese, Vietnamese, pizza, or whatever else (and no, I don't mean fast food - lots of places offer delivery service), since I have nobody at home to impress with my manners except myself and my cats. The only manners they expect of me is that I share, and the only manners I expect of them is that they don't bite my fingers when I do share. I use whatever utensil I want, and I put my elbows where I want. And if I want to wear a hat, that's fine as well.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I have nobody at home to impress with my manners except myself and my cats.

Given the rest of your post, I don't find it hard to believe.

 

[Timewalker]

I have nobody at home to impress with my manners except myself and my cats.

Given the rest of your post, I don't find it hard to believe.

And your point is...?

Look, I can put on fancy manners in public when I need to. That doesn't mean I enjoy it. That doesn't mean I don't think most of it's just silly and pretentious. I use common sense - of course you shouldn't wear a hat in a restaurant. It's rude, and interferes with seeing what's going on. It makes people wonder what you might be hiding. I'd like to think that exceptions would be made for cancer patients, however, and anyone whose religion requires them (whether due to rules or conscience) to wear a turban or headscarf. Also, if a person happens to be eating outside on a cool or windy day, or the restaurant happens to be cold (yes, I've been in that situation), a person shouldn't be snarked at by the wait staff for keeping one's coat draped over their shoulders.

I don't slurp my soup, burp, swear, or tolerate loud talking. I don't even own a cell phone, so I'm certainly not guilty of talking on one. I do sometimes get out my notebook (paper & pen kind) and write a few paragraphs of my current story while waiting for my food... but since I'm alone, what difference does it make? It's more entertaining than trying to lip-read the TV screen on the wall that has something interesting going on but the sound is on mute.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Exciting.

 

[ngc7293]

If you really want to be rude, go to a good restaurant and when you get your meal, take one bite. Then take your napkin, (hopefully it is cloth) and drape it over your plate and have the waitress give it to the chef. If the guy knows his stuff he will be completely insulted by what you just did.

I have had some bad food served to me, and I wished I had the courage to pull this maneuver.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I live in a very casual place, I eat out often (mostly asian) and I haven't give the term "table manners" a lick of thought in years. Rude to wear a hat in a restaurant? Never heard of such a thing.