Was Riker a jerk to Shelby?

[sonak]

I don't know. Riker's character development makes sense to me, even if it doesn't work in a modern military context.

He comes aboard as first officer in season one as an eager, career-minded officer looking forward to advancement. But he quickly becomes very happy aboard the Enterprise. Throughout seasons two and three, he is considered for his own command and is conflicted on more than one occasion about whether or not he should accept it.

At the end of season three/beginning of season four, the Borg incident happens and it is a major event in Riker's life. And he comes to realize that he is happier aboard the Enterprise than he has ever been at any point in his life and that despite his desire to move up in his career, he'd rather stay where he is happy. So from that point forward, he becomes comfortable in his skin and the issue of command does not come up again, until...

Nemesis, when major things are happening in Riker's life, namely his getting married, and he finally decides that it's time to move on to another stage of his life and accepts command of the Titan.

Seems reasonable to me.

Maybe he brought Shelby along as a way to nudge Riker on?

I agree that Riker's character development works, from young career-minded hotshot to seasoned pro who gets comfortable where he is. It's just silly from a military or even quasi-military perspective. You just can't clog the ranks for that long, you're keeping others from advancing because you're "happy there." They should never have brought up the multiple offers of captaincy thing, as it just hung a lampshade on the issue.

As for Shelby, I thought she was brought on to get her ready to replace Riker? Doesn't the admiral say "she'd make you a hell of a first officer?"

 

[Sindatur]

Again - what credible sources do we have for that story?

Don't have any concrete source for it, didn't claim to have any concrete source for it, and even indicated it was opinion when I used the word "probably"

 

[Doug Otte]

My understanding is that Patrick Stewart was playing hardball, so, she was probably a back up plan, when the Studio played hardball back.

I remember reading those rumors during the hiatus, but I don't know any more than that - they were rumors.

However, I do remember how excited we were to watch Part Two. My fiancee, another friend and I planned to go from DC to Baltimore to see Stewart speak at a small college, but the appearance was to begin about an hour after the end of the episode (we're about an hour from Bawlamer). We planned to skip out before the end of the episode, but couldn't tear ourselves away. Then we drove madly up 95, but found out the appearance was sold out when we got there, so it was a wasted trip (kids, this was in the age before ordering tickets online via the webz).

Doug

 

[Doug Otte]

Maybe because he'd just been through an incredibly traumatic experience? PTSD anyone?

And how long after "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" did "Family" take place? How long was Picard on Earth visiting with his family?

I love TNG, don't get me wrong, but the idea that we're supposed to take assimilation as this horrific, traumatic and just goddamn awful thing and then see Picard back to normal two episodes later really strains credibility.

Another reason why he shouldn't have been given back his command is the fact that there was still Borg tech snaking throughout his system. Even after Crusher finally supposedly removed everything, he could still "hear" Borg communications as late as First Contact. So, they could potentially have implanted a command in his brain to sabotage the Enterprise, or tie LaForge's shoelaces together, or give Riker a wedgie or something...

Doug

 

[CoveTom]

I agree that Riker's character development works, from young career-minded hotshot to seasoned pro who gets comfortable where he is. It's just silly from a military or even quasi-military perspective. You just can't clog the ranks for that long, you're keeping others from advancing because you're "happy there." They should never have brought up the multiple offers of captaincy thing, as it just hung a lampshade on the issue.

As for Shelby, I thought she was brought on to get her ready to replace Riker? Doesn't the admiral say "she'd make you a hell of a first officer?"

But does Starfleet have to follow modern military or quasi-military perspectives? It's not like there's a shortage of available command positions in Starfleet. How many hundreds or thousands of starbases, starships, etc. are there? One guy sitting in a spot on the Enterprise need not prevent others from advancing their careers.

And, indeed, Starfleet seems totally willing to give their officers that choice. Hansen and Picard both grumble to the effect that Riker is hurting his career by staying put, but they never once consider the possibility of ordering him to take a command, which Hansen certainly could. Also, when Riker makes his decision, Picard is more than willing to accept it. If he really wanted Riker gone, he could have put someone else in the first officer's spot.

Clearly, Starfleet thinks it is in the best interest of one's career to have an "onward and upward" attitude, but they also are willing to let someone choose not to take that attitude and don't feel it hurts lower level officers to do so.

 

[Ssosmcin]

This episode was written not because Stewart was thinking about quitting, it was because Michael Piller was considering his own exit. The situation Riker faced (stay because he comfortable or go and do something else on his own) echoed what Piller was going through. He stated as much in the Cinefantastique coverage at the time. At the time the episode was written, he was pretty much on the way out. I don't even know if he actually had any intention of resolving the episode.

The rumors of Stewart leaving were either just that, or something he said and used for leverage during the post season negotiations (much like Larry Hagman did when JR was shot in 1979). He wanted more to do, get off the ship more, yadda blah etc. But I don't remember seriously hearing he was going to be killed off.

As for Riker not taking commands, it's clear he wanted The Enterprise. Seems to me the only reason he took the Titan command was because it finally downed on him that he was only getting the Enterprise over Picard's cold, dead body. Jen-Luc was not going anywhere. Was it unrealistic for Riker to hold the Xo position for 15 years? Sure. About as unrealistic for Jen-Luc to not be promoted by then. Or pretty much anyone else who didn't move up in that time, or get transferred. Why merely focus on Riker? No need to fire at Will (puke).

Besides, wasn't the original concept of the Galaxy Class ships for them to go on 20 year missions? That they they brought their families. So, obviously, it was expected to have the officers in for the long haul.

Picard probably had regular therapy sessions. During the remaining 6 days of the week we never saw.

 

[warriorsfan]

Riker wasn't a jerk, he was just being a stern CO. Nothing he did was particularly out of line considering his place in the chain of command. In the real life military, you will find MUCH more stern officers who are in the same rank/position as Riker, when they are faced with brash and borderline insubordinate junior officers. It's not like they were on a survey mission, they were in a total war scenario. As others have pointed out, it wasn't an appropriate time for Shelby to be showing off and doing end runs and trying to make a name for herself. I would fully expect a subordinate officer in the U.S. Navy or U.S. Air Force who was showboating during a time of war would get snapped back into place pretty hard by their supervising officer.

 

[sonak]

I agree that Riker's character development works, from young career-minded hotshot to seasoned pro who gets comfortable where he is. It's just silly from a military or even quasi-military perspective. You just can't clog the ranks for that long, you're keeping others from advancing because you're "happy there." They should never have brought up the multiple offers of captaincy thing, as it just hung a lampshade on the issue.

As for Shelby, I thought she was brought on to get her ready to replace Riker? Doesn't the admiral say "she'd make you a hell of a first officer?"

But does Starfleet have to follow modern military or quasi-military perspectives? It's not like there's a shortage of available command positions in Starfleet. How many hundreds or thousands of starbases, starships, etc. are there? One guy sitting in a spot on the Enterprise need not prevent others from advancing their careers.

And, indeed, Starfleet seems totally willing to give their officers that choice. Hansen and Picard both grumble to the effect that Riker is hurting his career by staying put, but they never once consider the possibility of ordering him to take a command, which Hansen certainly could. Also, when Riker makes his decision, Picard is more than willing to accept it. If he really wanted Riker gone, he could have put someone else in the first officer's spot.

Clearly, Starfleet thinks it is in the best interest of one's career to have an "onward and upward" attitude, but they also are willing to let someone choose not to take that attitude and don't feel it hurts lower level officers to do so.

yeah, I guess. Especially if one of the motivations in today's military for advancement, more money, is no longer an issue.

 

[Cyke101]

I agree largely with what has been said here. Shelby comes in on fire knowing what she wants and it royally irks Riker who can't seem to make a decision.

What gets me is why Starfleet keeps trying to promote Riker? Based on everything we saw onscreen, he doesn't seem like someone Starfleet would keep offering opportunities at starship command. Four times if you count his promotion to the Titan in ST: Nemesis.

To be fair to Starfleet, IIRC, Starfleet stopped trying to promote Riker after BoBW. Did we really hear of any offers between BoBW and Nemesis? If not, that's a gap of offers of roughly 13 years. Getting offered promotion is good for the ego, of course, but if they stop coming...

 

[Trek Survivor]

Really this strains credibility on so many levels. Suppose a US infantry colonel was captured by Al Qaida today. He was drugged, tortured, broken and force to reveal all his military secrets. Later being rescued and found criminally innocent of any wrong doing, I still can't imagine he'd ever get a command on the lines again.

The analogy is wrong - Starfleet is not a military.

 

[BillJ]

Really this strains credibility on so many levels. Suppose a US infantry colonel was captured by Al Qaida today. He was drugged, tortured, broken and force to reveal all his military secrets. Later being rescued and found criminally innocent of any wrong doing, I still can't imagine he'd ever get a command on the lines again.

The analogy is wrong - Starfleet is not a military.

Funny, whenever the Federation is invaded it is Starfleet providing defense...

 

[Knight Templar]

Really this strains credibility on so many levels. Suppose a US infantry colonel was captured by Al Qaida today. He was drugged, tortured, broken and force to reveal all his military secrets. Later being rescued and found criminally innocent of any wrong doing, I still can't imagine he'd ever get a command on the lines again.

The analogy is wrong - Starfleet is not a military.

As I pointed out in another thread.

No. Starfleet is not a "military".

It is a SUPERMILITARY!!!.

By any objective standard as seen onscreen.

 

[sonak]

Really this strains credibility on so many levels. Suppose a US infantry colonel was captured by Al Qaida today. He was drugged, tortured, broken and force to reveal all his military secrets. Later being rescued and found criminally innocent of any wrong doing, I still can't imagine he'd ever get a command on the lines again.

The analogy is wrong - Starfleet is not a military.

Funny, whenever the Federation is invaded it is Starfleet providing defense...

yeah, pretty much. Wasn't that Nick Meyer's argument to Roddenberry when he wanted to make Starfleet look more militaristic in TWOK?

Roddenberry: Starfleet is not a military organization.

Meyer: Really, then why do they get called in when the Klingons, Romulans, etc. are attacking?


It's the duck test. It walks and talks like a military.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Maybe because he'd just been through an incredibly traumatic experience? PTSD anyone?

And how long after "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" did "Family" take place? How long was Picard on Earth visiting with his family?

I love TNG, don't get me wrong, but the idea that we're supposed to take assimilation as this horrific, traumatic and just goddamn awful thing and then see Picard back to normal two episodes later really strains credibility.

Too, you ignored the entire other point I made about why Riker simply steps down, lets himself get busted back down to three pips with nary a word about it. All we get is a cute moment when the doorbell to the ready room rings, and both Riker and Picard respond with the usual "Come!"

After all the shit Hanson gave Picard, and then Picard gave to Riker about "reconsidering" his decision, it seems rather hollow and convenient that suddenly Riker is a-ok to stay put. As Picard says in Part I, "Starfleet needs good captains, particularly now." -- and this was BEFORE the entire fleet was skullfucked at Wolf-359. Suddenly we don't need any captains?

Really this strains credibility on so many levels. Suppose a US infantry colonel was captured by Al Qaida today. He was drugged, tortured, broken and force to reveal all his military secrets. Later being rescued and found criminally innocent of any wrong doing, I still can't imagine he'd ever get a command on the lines again.

That's hardly the same thing as assimilation, and had Picard NOT been assimilated The Federation would have likely been conquered by the Borg.

No if Picard had not been assimilated the Enterprise would have poped the Borg cube like a balloon with its BFG deflector weapon and Starfleet would have walked away from the invasion with its fleet intact.

 

[sonak]

Really this strains credibility on so many levels. Suppose a US infantry colonel was captured by Al Qaida today. He was drugged, tortured, broken and force to reveal all his military secrets. Later being rescued and found criminally innocent of any wrong doing, I still can't imagine he'd ever get a command on the lines again.

That's hardly the same thing as assimilation, and had Picard NOT been assimilated The Federation would have likely been conquered by the Borg.

No if Picard had not been assimilated the Enterprise would have poped the Borg cube like a balloon with its BFG deflector weapon and Starfleet would have walked away from the invasion with its fleet intact.

Hmmm yeah, I guess that's a possibility too.

 

[doubleohfive]

Really this strains credibility on so many levels. Suppose a US infantry colonel was captured by Al Qaida today. He was drugged, tortured, broken and force to reveal all his military secrets. Later being rescued and found criminally innocent of any wrong doing, I still can't imagine he'd ever get a command on the lines again.

The analogy is wrong - Starfleet is not a military.

You're missing the point.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The analogy is wrong - Starfleet is not a military.

Funny, whenever the Federation is invaded it is Starfleet providing defense...

yeah, pretty much. Wasn't that Nick Meyer's argument to Roddenberry when he wanted to make Starfleet look more militaristic in TWOK?

Roddenberry: Starfleet is not a military organization.

Meyer: Really, then why do they get called in when the Klingons, Romulans, etc. are attacking?


It's the duck test. It walks and talks like a military.

Roddenberry should have been more precise. Starfleet is obviously miilitary - we've all seen it - it's just not militaristic. There's the difference.

 

[ILOVETREK1701]

Funny, whenever the Federation is invaded it is Starfleet providing defense...

yeah, pretty much. Wasn't that Nick Meyer's argument to Roddenberry when he wanted to make Starfleet look more militaristic in TWOK?

Roddenberry: Starfleet is not a military organization.

Meyer: Really, then why do they get called in when the Klingons, Romulans, etc. are attacking?


It's the duck test. It walks and talks like a military.

Roddenberry should have been more precise. Starfleet is obviously miilitary - we've all seen it - it's just not militaristic. There's the difference.

Star Fleet is a origination that conducts scientific and exploratory research and when required will provide defense.

 

[BillJ]

Star Fleet is a origination that conducts scientific and exploratory research and when required will provide defense.

You mean like every other modern military? You don't think we have four million people waiting around in case of war?

 

[Gary7]

In fairness, he professionally welcomed her as a collegue to work on an important project, and she let him know that she was after his job and she then disregarded his orders from there on in. She went from professional collegue to political rival right there, and she initiated it.

I'm not saying Riker was innocent here, but she put him on the defensive right out of the gate. She let her ambition make a dangerous situation even worse.

"The Borg are about assimilate earth? Oh, this is the perfect time to advance my career."

While I think they were both at fault at various points, Shelby was more of the jerk than Riker. OK, it's one thing for Riker to proceed with things as status quo, but for Shelby to disobey orders and show Riker blatant disrespect is simply uncalled for.

Shelby did have more of an urgent air about her than Riker, and quite frankly I agree with her--the Borg are a serious threat and every minute counts. Riker should have cut his sleep time short to get down to the planet and conduct the survey early, as Shelby did. But when Shelby tries to step over Riker on several occasions, even demanding someone to get Admiral Hansen on the line to counter Riker's decision, that's unprofessional and highly disruptive.

Shelby did lighten up towards the end. She would probably end up as a junior first officer aboard one of the replacement starships, knowing her aggressiveness. Riker should have taken command of a ship soon after the episode. It would only make sense, given the extreme shortage of captains. But in order to keep him active in the series, they could have devoted a double episode to the USS Titan (or other vessel he would subsequently command) where the ship would end up destroyed with Riker surviving. And after that, he would return to the Enterprise to resume as XO until he could muster up his nerve again to command once more.