What do you think the Typhon Pact represents?

[Jarvisimo]

The Typhon Pact is a complex addition to the world of Treklit, adding lots of new character, and providing a form to a group of disparate societies that is based on both opposition (from the Federation and her allies) and similarity (the same situation of disparate peoples coming together for political gain in the face of potential threat).

What does the Typhon Pact actually represent or mean as a contribution to the meta-narrative of Trek? In every book on the TP, as naturally happens, different authors bring out different shades of interpretation of what the TP or its members can be. There has been KRAD's hopeful vision that ended A Singular Destiny, the espionage and traditional antagonism of Zero Sum Game, and the manipulation games of Rough Beasts.

And what does it represent for the Federation - or force the Federation to be?

Given the sympathetic portrayals of the Breen and Romulans, the justification of the highly pragmatic utilitarian state of the Tzenkethi, the more interventionist politics of Nan Bacco in ZSG (microcosismed in Bashir and Ezri's militarism and murder), and other factors, what do you think the TP has added to meta-Trek?

 

[Yevetha]

The Axis of Evil.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

One of the most important things I'd say it represents is the idea that the influence you have on others doesn't necessarily correspond to what you'd particularly like, but that doesn't make the influence any less valuable. The Federation's quiet message of cooperation and the value in peaceful, widely-dispersed alliance is finally being picked up and replicated elsewhere. The immediate result is...the Federation surrounded by a new superpower which doesn't really like it very much. Many in the Federation are probably thinking, sarcastically, "The Romulans, Tzenkethi, Tholians and Breen are suddenly all chummy, right when we're at our weakest? Oh, frabjous day!". But that's how these things work. I suppose it's a lesson in humility; one that, like many such lessons, is more uplifting than it might seem. Other people are not you. Perhaps you think that they should be more like you, that this will be better for them, for those they interact with, and for the community as a whole. And maybe you're entirely right! But when they see the wisdom in your ways, don't expect them to suddenly become you, or to submit to your system precisely, or necessarily keep you in your comfort zone. They will do what they think is best, and when you see yourself in them to a greater degree than you did before, you can be content that you've made a difference, but you cannot control what they do with what you've given them. Well, you can try, but you'll fail and you'll surrender much of your own integrity in the process*. Other people and cultures are not blank slates onto which your advice can be uploaded to configure them into duplicates of you; they're alien to you, with different histories and different personal and social demons. So the Pact nations have their ways, which aren't the Federation's ways, and they have problems - internal tensions, worldviews defined by paranoia, etc - as well as policies troubling to Federation ethics (and vice versa). They've looked to the Federation and found strength and worth in its ideas, but will they use them wisely? And who defines wisely?

"Understanding is a three-edged sword", as someone once said. Who knows where it will cut? When you help someone see things differently, when they learn from your example or your advice and build a more functional, stronger, more contented version of themselves with what you gave, then haven't you triumphed? Even if the stronger, "better" them turns around and disappoints you? Why does it disappoint? Does it disappoint that natural egotistical part of you that wanted them to be you? Does it disappoint because "they didn't really get it" - has the idea been warped beyond worth? Or has it gained a new variant form from the new perspective and "evolved"? Does it disappoint because their growth is a threat to you? After all, some in the Federation might say, "if the Tholians have learnt cooperation but see it primarily in terms of "now we can gang up on the Federation!", then wouldn't it have been better if they hadn't learnt it? Better for us, anyway!"

I think this is the Pact's most valuable purpose - it takes everything that makes the Federation appealing as a protagonist nation and says "the Federation is part of a community. Members of a community influence each other. What happens when the Federation's ideas start getting "loose" and distributed elsewhere?" We all probably accept that the result will be beneficial for most of the aliens who adopt Federation values...but what does it mean for the Federation? If I see myself in you, but you are not me, then what and who am I? How does my identity change? The Federation was the prime superpower and the voice of cooperative, equalized alliance. Now it's not the prime superpower and someone else has adopted the voice of alliance, somewhat shakily. Time to redefine yourself? A learning opportunity, an opportunity for reflection and growth.

* Is the Prime Directive's "hands off" policy demonstrating this wisdom...or in fact flying in the face of it? Discuss.

 

[captcalhoun]

a clear and present danger to the national security of the United Federation of Planets.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

a clear and present danger to the national security of the United Federation of Planets.

That too.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think the Typhon Pact is a wakeup call to the Federation that it's no longer the only game in town. Sure, the Federation has dealt with its individual members in the past, but now they've banded together and established their own federation (so to speak).

The Typhon Pact is currently in its infancy, but so was the Federation at one point. It'll be interesting to see if the Federation can stay on top or take a back seat.

 

[Christopher]

Philosophically, what Deranged Nasat said.

Creatively, the Typhon Pact represents an opportunity to tell new stories, to develop civilizations that haven't been explored much in the past, and to create new complications for the Federation in fresher and more diverse ways than just another war or invasion.

And it represents a whole range of storytelling possibilities, because it's made from such diverse elements -- six different cultures with different national characters and different agendas, and often with multiple conflicting factions within any one culture (in four out of six cases so far). So there are different stories to tell about each individual member, about two or more members' interactions/conflicts with each other, about the Pact as a whole, etc. And each of those stories can be different in focus and tone and in the nature of the crisis or conflict. What's cool about it is that it doesn't represent any one thing. It's one change in the status quo that opens the door to so very many possible stories.

 

[Relayer1]

The TP are the good guys. Ask anyone in the Typhon Pact.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The TP are the good guys. Ask anyone in the Typhon Pact.

Well, they'd tell you that at least one-sixth of the Pact are the good guys.

 

[Jarvisimo]

And the TP's existence, being a reflection of the Federation, but so far a much more successful depiction of a geographically diverse federated culture(s), suggest that there should be more diversity in the Federation?

If the Federation is genuinely made up not simply of Humans, but several space-faring civilisations that are older and more historically important (Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, etc), as well as younger, virile species, should they not have as important a representation as the traditional human core? Should we not see more diversity, more cultural richness, more differentiated structures, names, philosophies, economies and beliefs.

One of the wonders of 'modern' treklit is the abundance of Federation aliens (rather than the token inclusions of past), not simply in Titan, but in Vanguard, DS9R, and several other books. But still their depiction, and the depiction of wider Federation culture, is very humanocentric - and perhaps mostly North American (and occasionally more widely Anglo-Saxon)?

By this I mean, that the aliens and humans exist in a roughly north american/anglophone human culture, rather than within more diverse ethnologies.

 

[Jarvisimo]

I think this is the Pact's most valuable purpose - it takes everything that makes the Federation appealing as a protagonist nation and says "the Federation is part of a community. Members of a community influence each other. What happens when the Federation's ideas start getting "loose" and distributed elsewhere?" We all probably accept that the result will be beneficial for most of the aliens who adopt Federation values...but what does it mean for the Federation? If I see myself in you, but you are not me, then what and who am I? How does my identity change? The Federation was the prime superpower and the voice of cooperative, equalized alliance. Now it's not the prime superpower and someone else has adopted the voice of alliance, somewhat shakily. Time to redefine yourself? A learning opportunity, an opportunity for reflection and growth.

I really hope this discussion can happen in-books, and in some sense, it would reflect the changes our own world seems likely to experience in the 21st century.

 

[darcy165]

The Axis of Evil.

good~~~

 

[Christopher]

^I'll never understand people who want the Typhon Pact to be nothing more than a monolithic "Evil Empire." That's just so incredibly boring and shallow next to what the Pact actually is.

 

[Jarvisimo]

^I'll never understand people who want the Typhon Pact to be nothing more than a monolithic "Evil Empire." That's just so incredibly boring and shallow next to what the Pact actually is.

A non-centralised alliance? A league of nations? A ray of hope for better storytelling as you said, and better world-building?

 

[Hugh Cambridge]

I completely agree with Christopher : I would'nt want the Pact to be a simple evil thing to deal with. That would be so boring ...

 

[j3067]

Given the sympathetic portrayals of the Breen and Romulans, the justification of the highly pragmatic utilitarian state of the Tzenkethi, the more interventionist politics of Nan Bacco in ZSG (microcosismed in Bashir and Ezri's militarism and murder), and other factors, what do you think the TP has added to meta-Trek?

The Breen and the Romulans obtained slipstream tech through a certain level of militarism and murder as well. The Breen were also shown to torture their own citizens in ZSG. The beginning of ZSG is told from the POV of a doomed Star Fleet security officer. The Breen in particular were shown to be a complicated culture with good and bad people, but as a whole they did not come out smelling like roses any more than Dax and Bashir.

 

[Jarvisimo]

Given the sympathetic portrayals of the Breen and Romulans, the justification of the highly pragmatic utilitarian state of the Tzenkethi, the more interventionist politics of Nan Bacco in ZSG (microcosismed in Bashir and Ezri's militarism and murder), and other factors, what do you think the TP has added to meta-Trek?

The Breen and the Romulans obtained slipstream tech through a certain level of militarism and murder as well. The Breen were also shown to torture their own citizens in ZSG. The beginning of ZSG is told from the POV of a doomed Star Fleet security officer. The Breen in particular were shown to be a complicated culture with good and bad people, but as a whole they did not come out smelling like roses any more than Dax and Bashir.

I wasn't suggesting any smell of roses, only that an espionage/black ops/wetworks plot arises from a complicated situation and leads to all characters being soiled.

However what Mack and George did in their books, as well as Christopher in his novella, was complicate and present as sympathetic the views of various member states, partly through making them more complex. But what they also did was make understandable the TP governmental fears, especially through the all hands dirtied approach of ZSG.

By showing the Federation so willingly and jingoistically resorting to wetworks and even blunt-force trauma (in that horrid and well-written sequence of the Aventine physically holding back the Breen ship in order to murder its surviving technicians & indeed the ship itself), to defend a dubious technological advance they themselves did not invent but gained by accident, in some senses justified to me the fears of the TP powers that the Federation is just as dangerous as they are. It made the Federation like the 'superpowers' of our own period - in confronting the reader with the devilish deals the Federation must engage with not to survive but simply to maintain its advantage, we see it as the bully (though not quite a villain).

And in his depiction of the Tzenkethi, George created a wonderful race who aren't villains (though certainly at points they are the bad guys to our heroes) but who are defined by a philosophical excellence. Their entire approach to the universe is so different from that of the Federation, yet so well suggested and rationalised, that they cannot simply be bad guys. Their moral and societal complaints about the Federation make great sense, it would seem.

 

[j3067]

And in his depiction of the Tzenkethi, George created a wonderful race who aren't villains (though certainly at points they are the bad guys to our heroes)

As well as to the Romulan officials that they assassinated.

 

[Jarvisimo]

And in his depiction of the Tzenkethi, George created a wonderful race who aren't villains (though certainly at points they are the bad guys to our heroes)

As well as to the Romulan officials that they assassinated.

True of course, but as an audience I think we ultimately accept the change - since a highly sympathetic as well as better written character replaces two more difficult, and more schizophrenic, ones.

 

[flandry84]

Perhaps if the TP were to expand it's membership and add some new races to the mix then maybe they might be considered something other than "an evil empire".
Shallow and boring as that may be Christopher but as I seem to be the only one pointing this out...the very first act we see perpetrated by the Typhon pact is an invasion of sovereign Federation territory by a cloaked Romulan vessel...the theft of valuable Starfleet technology and the murder of Federation personnel.
I hope that the authors will not let the Federation sleepwalk in to yet another war.