Science division and the Dominion war.

[sojourner]

During the Dominion war would Starfleet have removed certain divisions from ships like the Galaxy class? it would seem that keeping certain sciences on board during a period of strictly combat duty would be a waste of manpower and endangering those crew for no good reason.

 

[tafkats]

Since they're all Starfleet officers, it stands to reason that even the science division personnel would be trained in some emergency functions. And in a combat situation, you're likely to need a lot more people in those emergency response positions.

So they might all have stayed -- but instead of doing astronomical or biological research, some might be augmenting the damage control teams, some might double as medical corpsmen, etc.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The astronomer types were probably really useful at gathering intelligence, so if I were captain of a Galaxy class, I'd want some blueshirts manning the sensor arrays at all times.

 

[sojourner]

Since they're all Starfleet officers, it stands to reason that even the science division personnel would be trained in some emergency functions. And in a combat situation, you're likely to need a lot more people in those emergency response positions.

So they might all have stayed -- but instead of doing astronomical or biological research, some might be augmenting the damage control teams, some might double as medical corpsmen, etc.

This argument works in an ad hoc combat situation, but not so much for a war footing. Better to offload the science personnel and staff dedicated crew for those purposes.

 

[FordSVT]

No doubt they would be scaled down during war time versus a pure exploration mission, but having some scientific specialists on board would still be useful. You never know what unexpected situations might come up.

I'd imagine that most science officers and non-comms were probably transferred to planets and star bases to assist in the war effort in other ways.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think some science personnel would be essential for sensor data gathering & analysis. You'd probably need less specialized scientific personnel like a dedicated botanist or archaeologist and more general sciences people like Spock.

 

[tafkats]

Since they're all Starfleet officers, it stands to reason that even the science division personnel would be trained in some emergency functions. And in a combat situation, you're likely to need a lot more people in those emergency response positions.

So they might all have stayed -- but instead of doing astronomical or biological research, some might be augmenting the damage control teams, some might double as medical corpsmen, etc.

This argument works in an ad hoc combat situation, but not so much for a war footing. Better to offload the science personnel and staff dedicated crew for those purposes.

Sure -- if you have those people. But training takes time, and Starfleet may not have all that many trained combat personnel sitting around planetside waiting to be needed. There's also no indication of Starfleet having anything like the National Guard, which in the modern-day U.S. military picks up a lot of the extra work in wartime, and Starfleet is an all-volunteer organization, so they can't draft more personnel.

A former boss of mine was an Army journalist for 10 years or so. She was in a noncombat role, but she said it was always emphasized that no matter what your job is, you're a soldier first, and if your country needs you to, you're damn well going to pick up an M16 and use it.

 

[sojourner]

^Ah, but they can reactivate personnel.

Yeah, I don't think every science personnel on board would be removed. But the sciences that have limited application in a war setting definitely would be better off reassigned.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Almost everyone's cross-trained in Trek. Uhura manned the helm in TOS, Troi in TNG (with two crashes to her credit!), Beverly played captain for a day, Chekov manned sciences in TOS and the transporter in STXI, etc etc.

The scientists just started a different kind of science. The science of killing!

 

[7thsealord]

Obviously, all Star Fleet personnel are cross-trrained to some degree

Noting that, in the two-parter where Picard played spy (and got captured by the Cardassians) and Jellico was commanding the Enterprise, major changes in crew assignments were made. I recall a scene where Geordi complained about having a bunch of his engineers reassigned to security.

As regards this thread, I can see that Science may have to make do with somewhat less personnel on some ships, but it is not like the section would be reduced to one or two officers and a janitor, or anything like that. Depending on their duties, some ships may feel this change more than others.

 

[The Wormhole]

Even a starship that's strictly combat has need for science officers. In fact even Klingons and Romulans have science officers on their ships, and they're always strictly on military duties.

Space has all kinds of weird shit, be they nebulas, black holes, anomalies, and other whatsits and doo-dangs. These can be just as much a hazard and danger to the ship as an enemy fleet. To not have dedicated scientists on board would be very idiotic indeed.

And of course, even science officers can be combat trained. Janeway started her career off as a science officer and fought on the front lines in the Cardassian conflict.

 

[sojourner]

^Nobody is saying to "REMOVE ALL SCIENTISTS". Of course you need some sciences on board. Just not every disicipline that you would need for say.. exploration. And to have them onboard would be putting them in harmsway.

Janeway never took part in the Cardassian conflict, having been stranded in the Delta quadrant long before the war began.

 

[T'Girl]

And to have them onboard would be putting them in harmsway.

Sojourner, during war the entire crew would be put in harms way. If the scientists were civilians like Keiko O'Brien, yes yank their asses off the ship. But Starfleet scientists like Jadzia Dax would all stay aboard, during battle stations many would be trained in damage control duties, duties that couldn't go unattended.

During battle, a scientist might see something in a sensor reading, that a engineer or a bridge duty officer might miss.

How many times did we see Worf leave his console and a random crewman from one of the rear bridge stations immediately turn and assume the Worf's console? Or the same with Data's Ops console?

These people are cross-trained. What if a quarter of the non-scientists are killed or injured in battle, who would jump in to operate the ship?

Bill Nye, the science guy, that's who.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Dr. Crusher and the blueshirts kicked some Borg butt.

Blueshirt buttkicker

 

[The Wormhole]

Janeway never took part in the Cardassian conflict, having been stranded in the Delta quadrant long before the war began.

Umm, what? The Cardassian conflict ended five years before Voyager was stranded in the Delta Quadrant and Janeway's involvement in it was mentioned in the episode Prey.

EDIT TO ADD

Nobody is saying to "REMOVE ALL SCIENTISTS". Of course you need some sciences on board. Just not every disicipline that you would need for say.. exploration. And to have them onboard would be putting them in harmsway.

If Klingons can find room for a science officer on a bird of prey with a crew of two dozen, then a Galaxy class starship with a crew of 1000 should easily be able to accomadate a science staff in combat equal to what they have during exploration missions. Besides, science can contribute to warfare just as much as tactical.

 

[Saito S]

^Nobody is saying to "REMOVE ALL SCIENTISTS". Of course you need some sciences on board. Just not every disicipline that you would need for say.. exploration. And to have them onboard would be putting them in harmsway.

Janeway never took part in the Cardassian conflict, having been stranded in the Delta quadrant long before the war began.

I assume Wormhole is referring to the "Cardassian Wars" that began prior to TNG, not the Dominion War.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Wormhole!

Out of seven major departments that have been identified in one way or another during the shows, I'd say that science would probably have the fewest number of people that remained on front-line assignments with high combat potential during the war. That said, I still think a relatively small number of science officers would actually leave their normal assignments for this reason, and most of those would probably be noncoms. In Trek, it seems as though a full officer gets considerably more cross training via the Academy, and noncoms tend to be more focused on their primary role, with far lesser training outside of that (not sure how true this is in real life). Hence, any commissioned officer would be more likely to stick around, regardless of department, but a noncom science officer's skills, being so heavily focused on their particular specialty, might dictate they transfer elsewhere. Whereas the primary skill set of a noncom, say, Engineer, is still going to be useful in a combat-heavy scenario.

Pure scientists would still have their uses, as has been pointed out; you never know when you are going to run afoul of some insane phenomenon or spaceborne entity. Between that, and those science officers that can double as additional medical, operations (ops officers seem to be computer whizzes to some degree) or engineering officers, plus the odd science officer who just happened to put in an unusual amount of time training in tactical, security, piloting, etc... Again, I think the number of science officers that would leave their normal postings because of the war would be higher than any other single department, but not by much.

 

[Caliburn24]

As a combat veteran and former scout for the US Army I can tell you that the differences between a blue shirt, a yellow shirt, or even a red shirt pale in comparison to a real soldier. I find Starfleet's attempts at military doctrine and mindset laughable. But that is really a topic for another place and time.

What is pertinent to this topic is something every service member is familiar with, "Needs of the service". We had cooks and clerks as 50cal gunners in Iraq, mechanics kicking in doors. Heck, I as a cavalry scout got relegated to the duties of light infantry. In war the needs of the mission dictate everything. Training takes a back seat, and you do whatever the service needs you to do.

 

[sojourner]

Why does everyone keep implying that I want to remove anyone that has any relation to the word "science" removed from the ship? This is not what I am saying at all. Maybe an example will do:

Your an admiral with an exploration ship under your command. During peace time 10 of the 20 crew on board are in the sciences division with specialties such as archeology, botany, and first contact. Now, a war starts. Do you keep those 10 on board or do you maybe cycle them to behind the lines positions and replace them with 10 starfleet personnel that have more applicable war time skills but are otherwise stuck in postions not on the "front"? What's the best use of resources here? What's going to give you the best combat advantage you can muster?

Yes, pulling scientists off the ship would reduce staff if you don't fill those slots. I never said that.

And remind me, how many insane phenomenon or spaceborne entities were encountered during the dominion war? Space is big. Really Big. And mostly empty.

 

[Caliburn24]

Considering what we have seen onscreen in Trek, pulling the science department off of starships and replacing them with more engineers or security specialized crewmen would have zero effect on space-born combat power. Sure you could pack your hulls full of elite phaser marksman or crackerjack engineers on the off-chance you get boarded, but considering the rate at which Starfleet went through hulls in the Dominion War you're statistically just killing more of your people. In all honesty Starfleet should have gone to almost(or fully) automated combat ships a long time ago. Scotty's automation center in STIII was fine, except it was jury rigged. And the Prometheus seemed to fight well enough without a crew.

As to land-based combat, we haven't seen enough of it in Trek to really argue anything dogmatically, but it never seemed of enough strategic importance to have even a sliver of the significance of one of DS9s major fleet battles.

 

[tafkats]

During peace time 10 of the 20 crew on board are in the sciences division with specialties such as archeology, botany, and first contact. Now, a war starts. Do you keep those 10 on board or do you maybe cycle them to behind the lines positions and replace them with 10 starfleet personnel that have more applicable war time skills but are otherwise stuck in postions not on the "front"? What's the best use of resources here? What's going to give you the best combat advantage you can muster?

Again, the problem is that you have to have those people to replace them with, which is far from guaranteed, especially with Starfleet not having any organization that's the equivalent of the National Guard.

Starfleet might well rotate some people off and replace them with more qualified personnel, but I suspect most science staff would end up remaining.