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My problems with Kirstens Voyager Novels

And CLEARLY the post-series novels are selling. Pocket is a business at the end of the day, and if they weren't turning a profit on the novels they were selling, they wouldn't be ordering more novels that take place post-series.

Exactly. Numbered DS9 and VOY novels set during the canonical series' runs were not doing too well, IIRC. There were a few spikes (eg. Christie Golden's VOY titles, which is how she got the VOY Relaunch). I think the short story anniversary collections for each series did quite well. "String Theory" seemed successful, too, but that trilogy also had its critics.

And, since the days of John Ordover, Pocket has seemingly found marketing success when related novels are released in clumps. While it sounds fair to have twelve different series all getting one month each per year, having a concentration of like titles seemed to be a more viable model.

As for TOS, for a long time it seemed like we got too many TV series era books and not enough set in the movie era, but that's evened out a bit over time, despite the fact that several critically-acclaimed movie era novels did not achieve the numbers expected of them.
 
pocket never reveals sales figures. all we get is 'it sold very well' or 'it didn't sell well enough to merit a sequel' or such-and-such sold so well it's gone to a second printing (or third or fourth) type comments.

and since Marco's no longer around, we don't even get that any more unless an author says 'sorry folks, it didn't sell well enough for a sequel'.

S & S are a business and have NO agenda re Trek characters.

I think that the only conclusion we can draw is that the relaunch / post destiny novels are popular enough to continue with - if novels set during the shows were more profitable, S & S would stick to them, and they don't.

I for one am very glad - if they did we may as well still be stuck in the Richard Arnold era...
 
S & S are a business and have NO agenda re Trek characters.

I think that the only conclusion we can draw is that the relaunch / post destiny novels are popular enough to continue with - if novels set during the shows were more profitable, S & S would stick to them, and they don't.

Indeed, I highly doubt that, for instance, we would have seen the release of The Struggle Within, or of David R. George III's upcoming duology, all under the Typhon Pact banner, if the Typhon Pact series had not sold well.
 
So I went through every novel, anthology, and omnibus Pocket has published since 2001 (generally considered the start of the "modern era" of Trek Lit), trying to separate them into either "Familiar Paradigm" novels or "Innovative Paradigm" novels. The former would be what AuntKate would seem to be looking for: Something set during the canonical eras, featuring canonical characters, mostly doing familiar-ish things. "Innovative Paradigm" novels are ones that break with that pattern in some way, or are set after the canonical eras' ends, or which are primarily about original characters or one-off characters heavily defined by the novels, and/or which feature new, novel-original setups (eg, Vanguard, Stargazer, S.C.E, Klingon Empire, New Frontier[/], etc.).

I did not include the e-Book line, because they were so short and came out so often, and because they are generally represented in the omnibuses that were later published. I did not incorporate reprints of recent books, but I did incorporate reprints of books that had been out of print for at least a decade -- including the classic TOS novels reprinted in 2006 in celebration of TOS's 40th anniversary, and Nightshade, reprinted last year to fill a slot left vacant by the cancellation of the ST09 novels.

For my purposes, the "canonical era" refers to the period of time between the first canonical installment in a Trek series and its last. So the TOS canonical era stretches from 2254 ("The Cage") to 2293 (Star Trek Generations prologue); the TNG canonical era stretches from 2364 ("Encounter at Farpoint") to 2379 (Star Trek: Nemesis); the DS9 era from 2369 ("Emissary") to 2375 ("What You Leave Behind"); the VOY canonical era from 2371 ("Caretaker") to 2377 ("Endgame"); and the ENT canonical era from 2151 ("Broken Bow") to 2155 ("Terra Prime").

It's not always easy to actually divide the novels up. The Crucible trilogy, for instance, heavily incorporates both events from the canon, events set between canonical entries, and events set after the canonical era ends. TNG: A Time to... is set aboard the Enterprise-E, features the TNG characters doing TNG-ish things, and is set between INS and NEM, but also heavily ties into the later TTN and TNG Relaunch novels. Other novels may feature canonical characters in the canonical era doing familiar-ish things, but doing so in a way that's new and unusual -- Excelsior: Forged in Fire is set between ST5 and ST6 and features Sulu, but it's set during his first adventure as captain of the Excelsior, so I put it in the "Innovative" rather than "Familiar" category. And the novel to which Forged in Fire was a prequel, The Lost Era: The Sundered, heavily focused on Sulu and Chekov aboard the Excelsior, having a very traditional TOS adventure... in 2298, five years after the TOS canonical era ends. Etc. Some novels just strike me as being a little of both, so I put them in both categories. Bottom line: It's a bit of a subjective evaluation, and your mileage may vary as to whether or not I categorized them well.

By my count, since 2001, Pocket has published 92 "Familiar Paradigm" books, 153 "Innovative Paradigm" books, and 9 that I just couldn't categorize either way.

Here they are:

"Familiar Paradigm" Books

TNG: Tooth and Claw
TNG: Maximum Warp 1
TNG: Maximum Warp 2
TNG: The Genesis Wave 2
Section 31: Rogue (TNG)
Section 31: Shadow (VOY)
Section 31: Cloak (TOS)
VOY: Endgame novelization
Gateways: One Small Step (TOS)
Gateways: Doors into Chaos (TNG)
Gateways: No Man's Land (VOY)
ENT: Broken Bow novelization
Gateways: What Lay Beyond (anth)
TNG: The Genesis Wave 3
TOS: In the Name of Honor
ENT: By the Book
DS9: Millennium omnibus
TNG: Immortal Coil
TNG: A Hard Rain
TNG: The Battle of Betazed
TOS: Janus Gate 1
TOS: Janus Gate 2
TOS: The Last Roundup
TOS: Janus Gate 3
TOS: Errand of Vengeance 1
TOS: Errand of Vengeance 2
TOS: Errand of Vengeance 3
ENT: Shockwave novelization
VOY: The Nanotech War
ENT: What Price Honor?
TNG: Nemesis novelization
TOS: Gemini
TOS: Garth of Izar
ENT: Surak's Soul
TNG: Do Comets Dream?
DS9: Prophecy and Change anthology
ENT: The Expanse novelization
TNG: Q Continuum omnibus
TOS: Worlds in Collision omnibus
ENT: Daedalus
TNG: Imzadi Forever omnibus
TNG: A Time to Be Born
TNG: A Time to Die
TNG: A Time to Sow
TNG: A Time to Harvest
ENT: Daedalus's Children
TNG: A Time to Love
TNG: A Time to Hate
TNG: A Time to Kill
TNG: A Time to Heal
TNG: A Time for War/Peace
TOS: Duty, Honor, Redemption
TOS: Sand and Stars
TOS: Ex Machina
TOS: Errand of Fury 1
DS9: Hollow Men
VOY: String Theory 1
VOY: String Theory 2
VOY: Distant Shores anthology
ENT: Rosetta
VOY: String Theory 3
ENT: Last Full Measure
TOS: Vulcan's Glory (old reprint)
TOS: Strangers From the Sky (old reprint)
TOS: Crucible 1
TOS: Constellations anthology
TOS: The Entrophy Effect (old reprint)
TOS/TNG: Federation (old reprint)
TOS: Rihannsu 5
TOS: Crucible 2
TOS: Rihannsu omnibus
TOS: Errand of Fury 2
TOS: Crucible 3
TNG: The Sky's the Limit
Excelsior: Forged in Fire
TOS: Errand of Fury 3
TOS: Mere Anarchy omnibus
ST09: Star Trek (2009) novelization
TOS: Troublesome Minds
TOS: Inception
TOS: Unspoken Truth
TOS: The Children of Kings
TNG: Nighshade (old reprint)
ST09: SF Academy: Delta Anomaly
ST09: SF Academy: The Edge
ST09: SF Academy: The Gemini Agent
TOS: A Choice of Catastrophes
TOS: The Rings of Time
TOS: That Which Divides
DTI: Forgotten History (TOS)
ST09: SF Academy: The Assassination Game
ST09: SF Academy: TBA

"Innovative Paradigm" Books
Dark Passions 1 (MU)
Dark Passions 2 (MU)
TNG: Diplomatic Implausibility
DS9: Avatar 1
DS9: Avatar 2
TOS: Eugenics Wars 1
Section 31: Abyss (DS9)
Gateways: Chainmail (CHA)
Gateways: Demons of Air and Darkness (DS9)
Gateways: Cold Wars (NF)
NF: Being Human
Gateways: What Lay Beyond (anth)
SCE: Have Tech, Will Travel omnibus
SCE: Miracle Wokers omnibus
Starfleet: Year One
TOS: Eugenics Wars 2
SGZ: Gauntlet
SGZ: Past Life
DS9: Mission Gamma 1
DS9: Mission Gamma 2
TOS: Captain's Peril
DS9: Mission Gamma 3
DS9: Mission Gamma 4
Brave and the Bold 1 (TOS/DS9)
Brave and the Bold 2 (TNG/VOY)
DS9: Rising Son
DS9: Left Hand of Destiny 1
DS9: Left Hand of Destiny 2
SCE: Some Assembly Required omnibus
SCE: No Surrender omnibus
VOY: Homecoming
Genesis Force
VOY: The Farther Shore
SGZ: Three
TLE: The Sundered (TOS)
Pantheon omnibus
SGZ: Oblivion
TLE: Serpents Among the Ruins
NF: Gods Above
NF: Stone and Anvil
NF: No Limits anthology
TLE: The Art of the Impossible
DS9: Unity
TLE: Well of Souls
GKN: A Good Day to Die
TOS: Captain's Blood
TLE: Deny Thy Father
GKN: Honor Bound
TOS: Case of the Colonist's Corpse
TLE: Catalyst of Sorrows
SCE: Foundation omnibus
Worlds of DS9 1
TOS: Vulcan's Soul 1
SGZ: Enigma
Tales of the Dominion War anthology
SGZ: Maker
SCE: Wildfire omnibus
VOY: Spirit Walk 1
NF: After the Fall
VOY: Spirit Walk 2
TOS: To Reign in Hell
Worlds of DS9 2
ST: Engines of Destiny
GKN: Enemy Territory
TTN: Taking Wing
SCE: Breakdowns omnibus
ST: Articles of the Federation
Tales from the Captain's Table anthology
VAN: Harbinger
TNG: Death in Winter
TTN: The Red King
TTN: Orion's Hounds
NF: Missing in Action
DS9: Warpath
VAN: Summon the Thunder
TOS: Vulcan's Soul 2
TOS: Burning Dreams
TOS: Captain's Glory
TOS: Crucible 1
CoE: Aftermath omnibus
TOS: Crucible 2
MU: Glass Empires
TOS: Crucible 3
MU: Obsidian Alliances
ENT: The Good That Men Do
TOS: Vulcan's Soul 3
DS9: Twist of Faith omnibus
VAN: Reap the Whirlwind
TNG: The Buried Age
CoE: Grand Desgns omnibus
TNG: Resistence
TOS: Academy Collision Course
TNG: Q & A
TNG: Before Dishonor
TTN: Sword of Damocles
CoE: Creative Couplings omnibus
Excelsior: Forged in Fire
KE: A Burning House
DS9: Terok Nor 1
DS9: Terok Nor 2
DS9: Terok Nor 3
DS9: These Haunted Seas omnibus
MyU:Infinity's Prisim
DS9: Fearful Symmetry
MyU:Echoes and Reflections
TNG: Greater Than the Sum
ENT: Kobayashi Maru
ST: Destiny 1
ST: Destiny 2
ST: Destiny 3
CoE: Wounds omnibus
MU: Shards and Shadows
ST: A Singular Destiny
TTN: Over a Torrent Sea
NF: Treason
VOY: Full Circle
VAN: Open Secrets
TNG: Losing the Peace
DS9: The Soul Key
DS9: The Never-Ending Sacrifice
ENT: Romulan War 1
VOY: Unworthy
TTN: Synthesis
VAN: Precipice
MU: The Sorrows of Empire
ST: Seven Deadly Sins anthology
STO: The Needs of the Many
Coe: Out of the Coccoon omnibus
CoE: What's Past omnibus
TP: Zero Sum Game (DS9)
TP: Seize the Fire (TTN)
MyU: Shattered Light
TP: Rough Beasts of Empire (TOS/DS9)
TP: Paths of Disharmony (TNG/DS9)
TNG: Indistinguishable Frm Magic
NF: Blind Man's Bluff
DTI: Watching the Clock
VOY: Children of the Storm
VAN: Declassified
TOS: Cast No Shadow
VAN: What Judgments Come
ENT: Romulan War 2
MU: Rise Like Lions
ST: Destiny omnibus
VAN: Storming Heaven
DTI: Forgotten History
TP: Plagues of Night
TP: Raise the Dawn
TTN: Fallen Gods
VOY: The Eternal Tide
TNG Mack Trilogy 1
TNG Mack Trilogy 2
TNG Mack Trilogy 3

"I Can't Define Them" Books
SNW 5
The Amazing Stories
Double Helix Omnibus
SNW 6
SNW 7
The Hand of Kahless omnibus
SNW 8
SNW 9
SNW 10
 
Wow, I didn't realize that many "familiar paradigm" book had come out since 2001.
 
Status of ex-Borg and ex-Borg space

former Borg territory is pretty much going to be a wasteland. There's nobody living there now that the Borg are gone, the planets probably can't support life anymore -- it's just a huge desert.

It was my understanding from Destiny that the trillions of Borg beings were released from their Borg trappings by the actions of the Caeliar. The Caeliar were able to use their impressive abilities to release all these beings without just killing them all. They were transformed back into regular humanoids pre Borg assimulation, much like Seven of Nine lost her Borg parts.

I was under the impression that these trillions of beings were still alive, just not Borg any longer. Probably struggling to get by in a wasteland of area that was decimated by the Borg while they still existed. Learning how to start their lives over again as individuals. This is why I'm excited for the Voyager novels to get out there and see what Borg space is like now.

Is that not everyone else's take on the resolution towards the end of Destiny?
 
Re: Status of ex-Borg and ex-Borg space

^ Sci - going the extra mile since 2002...

:)

Thank you much.

former Borg territory is pretty much going to be a wasteland. There's nobody living there now that the Borg are gone, the planets probably can't support life anymore -- it's just a huge desert.

It was my understanding from Destiny that the trillions of Borg beings were released from their Borg trappings by the actions of the Caeliar. The Caeliar were able to use their impressive abilities to release all these beings without just killing them all. They were transformed back into regular humanoids pre Borg assimulation, much like Seven of Nine lost her Borg parts.

I was under the impression that these trillions of beings were still alive, just not Borg any longer. Probably struggling to get by in a wasteland of area that was decimated by the Borg while they still existed. Learning how to start their lives over again as individuals. This is why I'm excited for the Voyager novels to get out there and see what Borg space is like now.

Is that not everyone else's take on the resolution towards the end of Destiny?

Lost Souls made it fairly explicit that the overwhelming majority of liberated Borg chose to join the Caeliar gestalt and go "beyond the Rim" -- or sail to the West, or whatever other "ancient advanced powers finally leave the accessible world for distant lands" trope name you want to call it. People like Seven of Nine, who did not join the Caeliar, are the incredibly, unbelievably rare exception.
 
Re: Status of ex-Borg and ex-Borg space

former Borg territory is pretty much going to be a wasteland. There's nobody living there now that the Borg are gone, the planets probably can't support life anymore -- it's just a huge desert.

It was my understanding from Destiny that the trillions of Borg beings were released from their Borg trappings by the actions of the Caeliar. The Caeliar were able to use their impressive abilities to release all these beings without just killing them all.
I was under the impression that these trillions of beings were still alive, just not Borg any longer.

Lost Souls made it fairly explicit that the overwhelming majority of liberated Borg chose to join the Caeliar gestalt and go "beyond the Rim" -- or sail to the West, or whatever other "ancient advanced powers finally leave the accessible world for distant lands" trope name you want to call it. People like Seven of Nine, who did not join the Caeliar, are the incredibly, unbelievably rare exception.

You and Christopher are right, of course, Sci. I re-read the end of Lost Souls and it does make it clear that most, if not all, liberated Borg chose to join the Caeliar.

I don't think that would include Riley and her little group because they were already seperate from the Borg prior to the actions of the Caeliar. I would also wonder if the Caeliar allowed Riley and her group to keep their Borg tech and implants since they were integral to their society, but seperate from the Borg collective. We know some Borg tech was left in our galaxy after the Caeliar actions, like the Borg graveyard around the Children of the Storm, etc. And perhaps Riley and her group's tech can help out the rare people like Seven of Nine, who were liberated Borg, but still wanted the tech in their lives.

Still, to get a little back on topic, all of this is many thousands of light-years off. There is plenty other areas in the Delta Quadrant to revisit or explore anew before we get to the area of space where Riley was -- or the planet where Amelia Aerhart and her group of humans are. While I'm interested in revisiting these groups, I'm very happy to take time along the way for all the other interesting stories that will come up. I trust Kristen to take us on a great journey, even if the destination changes in unexpected directions along the way.
 
Re: My problems with Kirstens Voyager Novels

My only problem with Kirsten's Voyager novels? We have to wait until September (late August) for the sure-to-be-awesome The Eternal Tide to come out. :)
 
Datalogan makes a good point. Riley and her group were seperate from the collective so may not have gone with the Caeliar. However, they did form a collective of their own; I wouldn't be surprised if they left as well.

Though it would be interesting to revisit old Voyager destinations, they were sent to explore Borg space. I doubt we will see areas untouched by the Borg for awhile.
 
1. She writes Voyager's characters extremely well and they seem to get the short end of the stick. They have to make room for new and improved versions of Dr. House and old grandma-like Farkas. I'm calling this the Vanguard Syndrome where major trek characters are starting to seem like cameos so that the authors can indulge themselves and not be stifled by established back stories.

I would suggest that it's a mistake to think of TV-originated characters and novel-originated characters as being in a separate category, or of some as being more or less important. They're all equal.

Actually, I think JonLuck has a point worth discussing. Why is it that recent writers (like Beyers) are determined to replace the on-screen characters with new, unfamiliar ones? No novel-generated character is ever going to gain the recognition and popularity of a character from television or movies, and to suggest that novel-generated characters are equal is a pipe dream. If the current writers are tired of writing about the familiar character and want to create new ones of their own, maybe it’s time for them to move on and write non-Trek books. And if the “march of time” in the current Destiny series means that these characters are too old to carry on, then bring the Destiny story line to a rapid close and roll back the clock. :lol:

It’s important to remember that the posters in this forum, who buy and read everything Trek, are the exception, not the rule. Many Trek fans don’t want to commit to the current novels with a plot line that stretches over a long list of books and focuses on unfamiliar ships and characters. They read a variety of things, not just Trekfic or even scifi, and want to be able to pick up a TNG, DS9, or VOY novel in the airport or bookstore and read about the familiar crew on the title ship (or station), interacting as they did on screen. They're unhappy to spend good money only to find those characters missing or glossed over and, because of that, are unlikely to buy another Trek book. There are few, if any novels that cater to that reader, and it’s past time for a change, imho. ;)

I see your point, but I have to disagree. The numbered novels all have the usual characters off on some adventure. The universe does not expand, no new characters are introduced. As a companion to a series, they are fine. But in place of the series? Dull dull dull.

And for the point about not liking the new characters as much as the old, I am as invested in Captain Afsarah Eden, Commander Elias Vaughn (DS9), and Jasminder Choudhury (TNG) as I am in the on screen characters.

I have never felt that the on screen characters were slighted in Beyer's books. Or the DS9 or TNG novels for that matter. The departure of some key characters left holes to be filled and I am glad for the way that Beyer filled them. They are a great improvement over characters like that silly kangaroo of a counselor that Golden inflicted upon us.

Although I would like to see more novels published each year with at least one novel set during the respective series. There are plenty of stories to tell from TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise that could be set during a series. And aside from TOS, neither the novels or the comics seem interested in telling them. So in that, I agree with you.
 
Although I would like to see more novels published each year with at least one novel set during the respective series. There are plenty of stories to tell from TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise that could be set during a series. And aside from TOS, neither the novels or the comics seem interested in telling them. So in that, I agree with you.

This. Thank you for hearing what I was trying to say! :)
 
Datalogan makes a good point. Riley and her group were seperate from the collective so may not have gone with the Caeliar. However, they did form a collective of their own; I wouldn't be surprised if they left as well.

Didn't they get wiped out? I'm sure it was said somewhere in Greater than the Sum (among the massive info dumps in that book) or in Gods of Night this was the case.
 
There are plenty of stories to tell from TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise that could be set during a series. And aside from TOS, neither the novels or the comics seem interested in telling them.

I think there should be a really tight rein on novels set during any of the series. There are more than enough stand alone stories and the periods concerned are already overcrowded.

I would not stop altogether - there are certainly enough background issues and off screen events to allow for some novels of that sort (Hollow Men springs to mind) but we have enough stand alone novels.

If the story pitch is good enough, it will PROBABLY be possible to set it in a less crowded period...
 
What would be fun AND a chance for newbies to get on board would be a novel alternating between TV-era and Typhon Pact-era Trek, a bit like "Captain's Peril" did.
 
There are plenty of stories to tell from TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise that could be set during a series. And aside from TOS, neither the novels or the comics seem interested in telling them.

I think there should be a really tight rein on novels set during any of the series. There are more than enough stand alone stories and the periods concerned are already overcrowded.

I would not stop altogether - there are certainly enough background issues and off screen events to allow for some novels of that sort (Hollow Men springs to mind) but we have enough stand alone novels.

If the story pitch is good enough, it will PROBABLY be possible to set it in a less crowded period...

You can say there are too many novels placed during the various series because you've probably been around for a long time and have read them--but most of those novels are out of print and available only in used book stores. They aren't on the shelves at airports, supermarkets, and bookstores where new readers might be drawn in and actually buy a new book. And new readers, like all of us, are initially hooked by the TV programs and the movies; they will want books set in that familiar period of time.

I imagine, if someone was industrious enough to do it, we'd discover that TOS's original five year mission has enough novels to triple that period of time at least. But, who cares? Do we have to be literal about such things? I don't think so. Nor do we have to have a single relaunch of any of the series.
 
There are plenty of stories to tell from TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise that could be set during a series. And aside from TOS, neither the novels or the comics seem interested in telling them.

I think there should be a really tight rein on novels set during any of the series. There are more than enough stand alone stories and the periods concerned are already overcrowded.

I would not stop altogether - there are certainly enough background issues and off screen events to allow for some novels of that sort (Hollow Men springs to mind) but we have enough stand alone novels.

If the story pitch is good enough, it will PROBABLY be possible to set it in a less crowded period...

You can say there are too many novels placed during the various series because you've probably been around for a long time and have read them--but most of those novels are out of print and available only in used book stores. They aren't on the shelves at airports, supermarkets, and bookstores where new readers might be drawn in and actually buy a new book. And new readers, like all of us, are initially hooked by the TV programs and the movies; they will want books set in that familiar period of time.

I imagine, if someone was industrious enough to do it, we'd discover that TOS's original five year mission has enough novels to triple that period of time at least. But, who cares? Do we have to be literal about such things? I don't think so. Nor do we have to have a single relaunch of any of the series.

Well, firstly, I am literal about these things, but that's my problem I suppose !

I really don't think Treklit is capable of pulling in much in the way of new or casual readers at this late stage of the game. You are correct in that most of the stand alones that may attract airport browsers are out of print but this could be catered to by a reprint program - TNG Nightshade was reissued recently (with a much improved cover).

This would also help the more comitted fans struggling to find mint copies of old novels...
 
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