Capt. Christopher's F-104

[Mysterion]

Watching Tomorrow Is Yesterday this morning, and got curious about Capt. Christopher's ride.

found this: http://www.i-f-s.nl/cn/183-1243.html

Looks like in real life, the aircraft didn't make it to 1969 to meet the Enterprise. (Okay, it could have been rebuilt after the 1965 crash, but that last picture isn't too promising.)

This looks to be the unit insignia on Capt. Christopher's flightsuit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/479th_Tactical_Training_Wing

(It was designated as the 479th Tactical Fighter Wing during that time period.)

Also of note is that the aircraft momentarily morphs into an F-105 during the chase. Curious.

 

[jayrath]

No problem! Kirk obviously fudged the details in his filmed, hour-long audio/visual log, to avoid polluting the time-line.

 

[J.T.B.]

Watching Tomorrow Is Yesterday this morning, and got curious about Capt. Christopher's ride.

found this: http://www.i-f-s.nl/cn/183-1243.html

Looks like in real life, the aircraft didn't make it to 1969 to meet the Enterprise. (Okay, it could have been rebuilt after the 1965 crash, but that last picture isn't too promising.)

This looks to be the unit insignia on Capt. Christopher's flightsuit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/479th_Tactical_Training_Wing

(It was designated as the 479th Tactical Fighter Wing during that time period.)

Interesting story! A long time ago I tried to look up the tail numbers in the episode but never got anywhere. At least he walked away alive.

I believe the shoulder insignia on Christopher's suit is an Air Defense Command "Expert" patch, which makes sense for an interceptor pilot (not really for an F-104 pilot but we'll let that slide...):

Justin

 

[Mysterion]

^^^^
I stand corrected, J.T.B. Good catch!

 

[Timo]

Another one for the experts: Spock fears that interceptors of this era could carry nuclear-tipped weapons. Apparently, the F-104 wasn't cleared or equipped to carry the AIM-26A, but was wired for the Genie - yet Wikipedia mentions a special trapeze launcher for the Genie, one that apparently was necessary for carrying the nuclear rocket beneath (one wing of?) the F-104 but "was never operationally carried".

So, in our reality, could Spock have breathed more easily the moment he identified the interceptor as a Starfighter? Or did USAF actually have the necessary launchers in stock and at hand (rather than as a purely theoretical option at the very back of some warehouse), and could a real Capt. Christopher have been packing a Genie this rare once?

In the Trek reality, all bets are of course off, although the Sidewinder-shaped missiles that dangle on Christopher's wingtips appear way too small to house nukes and might convince Spock to relax.

Interesting how the redone visuals give us the Sidewinders (on an aircraft that in the teaser was shown toting wingtip tanks - kudos to the tarmac team for speed!) while the original visuals give a clean aircraft that could be packing an internal gun at most. Also, when the pilots scramble to the two Starfighters inside the concrete hangar, these aircraft carry underwing fuel tanks, yet Christopher takes off with just the missiles and without a wingman; apparently, those "other two" aircraft only got airborne some time later... So, confusing use of footage, but not the complete mess it could have been.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

So, in our reality, could Spock have breathed more easily the moment he identified the interceptor as a Starfighter? Or did USAF actually have the necessary launchers in stock and at hand (rather than as a purely theoretical option at the very back of some warehouse), and could a real Capt. Christopher have been packing a Genie this rare once?

AFAIK that is correct, it was never carried by F-104s other than for testing. That does not detract from Spock's warning, though: If you think you're about to have an incoming "possible" nuclear warhead, you don't roll the dice based on the accuracy of minutiae about historic aircraft and their ordnance. You act as if the nukes are there and about to be lit.

If they had used film of F-106s or F-101s the missile warning (and the shoulder patch) might have been more credible,
but that's nitpicking, innit?



Justin

 

[Maurice]

It would be interesting to know what the script says about the jet. They clearly had to pull from stock footage, bit one wonders if the script actually calls for a specific aircraft.

 

[Sean_McCormick]

The F-104G developed as a fighter-bomber for germany were equipped to carry american nukes.

 

[Timo]

...But only freefall weapons. While the Genie rocket was a fairly simple point-and-shoot, fire-and-forget weapon, it still apparently required something of the radar and the computer of the aircraft, not just a suitable hardpoint.

Speaking of fire-and-forget...

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=84828

Apparently, at least Alpha Geek had seen a bit more of this trapeze system. Whether it would have existed as an even halfway practical option or not, probably only a select few "inside" people would know. Sometimes, "experimental" hardware has played a very real role in actual conflicts, and has been developed or taken out of mothballs in a matter of days.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[siskokid888]

^While its true that they only could carry free-fall nukes, Spock's info might have simply said "carried nuclear wepons" without being specific as to how they were deployed. He might have just been general to be as cautious as possible.

 

[Sean_McCormick]

My guess would be, that something about the german starfighter carrying nukes might have been mentioned in an article when the craft was offered to the german military or the contracts signed- which could have been remembered by the production crew while selecting the footage for the episode.

 

[Forbin]

^I seriously doubt anyone gave it that much thought. The writer may not have even known what kind of plane they'd use stock footage of. It was 1966, nukes were cool, the writer threw the line in.

We're being traditional Trekkies and over-analyzing.

 

[Timo]

Even somebody in the know would have been well justified in thinking "F-104 = dedicated interceptor" + "Nukes launched by interceptors = real" => "F-104 carries a nuke, at least in a slightly fictional universe". It's something of an anomaly that the Genie wasn't cleared for F-104 operations, really.

I wonder what a well-aimed detonation of one would really have done to the Enterprise... Apparently, there wouldn't be any EMP damage, since the Romulan nuke created none in "BoT". And starships are pretty resilient to mechanical damage, as evidenced by the Enterprise surviving the physical crush of, say, the Space Amoeba or Apollo's hand.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

The Romulan nuke that detonated close to the Enterprise in Balance of terror, detonated in a vacuum and I believe the Enterprise had her shields up at the time.

The Genie's one and a half kiloton nuke would have exploded in the atmosphere and (per dialog) the ship had her shields down until she reached orbit.

It was reasonable for Spock to conjecture that if hit, the ship would be badly damaged.

 

[MANT!]

The F-104A wasn't removed from Air Defence Command service until just after Star Trek's run in late 1969. it was flown by 2 Squadrons in the ADC, the 319th Fighter Interceptor Squadron and the 331st FIS..

the 319th was the last F-104A equipped unit at Homestead AFB FL.giving up it's Zippers in 1969..

So, yes, the flightsuit and shoulder patch were still correct.

The 331st was based at Webb AFB TX and retired it's F-104As in late 1967.....
http://www.usafpatches.com/adcom.shtml

http://www.vectorsite.net/avf104_1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter


However as far as I can determine, the stock footage on the TAC airfield originated from George AFB CA..which flew F-104Cs (a version of the F-104 for tactical air superiority use with ground attack as a secondary capability) and the F-104's on the ground are C models.. as well as Captain Christopher's aircraft in the flight footage..

The F-104C was operated out of George AFB from 1958 to late 1967...and regulated to the Puerto Rico ANG after that..deterring overflights by Cuban MiGs until 1975...

So If Capt. Christopher was in ADC, he would've flown an F-104A from the 319th FIS at Homestead AFB. near the Kennedy Space Center (Cape Kennedy at the time).


The stock footage was simply in error..(but wasn't at the time the episode was filmed)..

For a little fun..hear the Starfighter Howl!!

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6K4iSxET6g[/yt]

 

[Forbin]

Music to the ears of this child of the cold war!
WOW!

 

[Forbin]

The Romulan nuke that detonated close to the Enterprise in Balance of terror, detonated in a vacuum and I believe the Enterprise had her shields up at the time.

The Genie's one and a half kiloton nuke would have exploded in the atmosphere and (per dialog) the ship had her shields down until she reached orbit.

It was reasonable for Spock to conjecture that if hit, the ship would be badly damaged.

I think if the shields were down, it stood a good chance of taking a big chunk out of the ship. 1.5kt is nothing to sneeze at. Yes, the E has taken insanely bigger hits with her shields up, but...

 

[MANT!]

Footage of F-104 firing a Genie missile..

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyUcQbsEBrE[/yt]

And the only air to air Genie nuke missile test..
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlE1BdOAfVc[/yt]

 

[T'Girl]

Music to the ears of this child of the cold war!
WOW!

Jet noise ... the sound of freedom.

As I understand it, the stock footage was of George AFB, however one of my uncles was based at Holloman AFB for over a year, and he says that the images could easily be a representation of Holloman. Arid, with medium mountains in the background.

Question, why would a aircraft from Holloman be sent after a UFO over the "Omaha installation?" The distance from Holloman to Omaha, Nebraska (Offutt ?) is 800 miles, the F-104, while fast, isn't that fast.

Unless the term "omaha installation" refers to something in New Mexico, a code name of some kind.

 

[MANT!]

Well again, the only Air Defence Command unit still flying the F-104 in 1969 (when the episode was stated to take place) was the 319th Fighter Interceptor Squadron out of Homestead AFB Florida..No other active duty ADC Squadron was flying them at the time..

And the footage of the SAGE building was apparently that of Offut AFB Nebraska..

So we have either a Florida based F-104A out of Florida, or a Puerto Rican ANG F-104C based on where the aircraft were based in 1969..if we match the flightsuit and shoulder patch to the actual command that they were used in..then it's ONLY the F-104A unit in Florida that could have housed Captain Christopher's aircraft.. If we go by the tail number and his unit patch, the aircraft would have been based out of George AFB which gave up it's F-104s in 1967..and the actual aircraft was written off after it's crash in 1965. IF we go by the "alternate reality" theory, the USAF transferred it's F-104C units to ADC in 1964, modified them for routine Genie carriage and retasked them as interceptors basing one squadron in a desert area of the upper Midwest perhaps South Dakota.. (the option I prefer actually) forward basing them around Nebraska due to the Zipper's rather limited range..