Why didn't Theiss find a shirt that photographed green, then.

[AshGL1914]

This is going to require technology I don't possess at present. Maybe if I get one of those projectors.

The point is that in the ViewMaster pics (not the horribly degraded ones seen upthread) those second season velour command tunics are not only green, but the same shade of olive drab/avocado green that we see more clearly displayed in the third season tunics. I don't know what kind of lights the ViewMaster folks were using when they took those pics between takes, but they definitely hit on the color Theiss was after.

So the question I have is not what color that velour is now, but what color it was back then.

Please forgive this...THAT'S SILLY.

Apparently you can give people all the evidence and resources in the world, and they'll still choose the most implausible idea if it suits them to do so. Maybe that's why there are still people out there who beleave the moon landing was faked, and Lee Harvey had a buddy on the ground when Jack Kennedy was shot. Damn.

As for Donmoor shirts Capt. Tracy, if you check out the TOS section of the Star Trek:Phase II Costumes board you'll find a whole thread dedicated to the Donmoor shirts. Guess who started that?

Good luck guys,
John

 

[AshGL1914]

Oh, and Capt. Tracy? They did make long sleeved Donmoor shirts, but...


They had black ribbed cuffs!

 

[Captain Tracy]

RIBBED CUFFS!!!!!

Oh thanks for that information,.. here we go again!!!,...

BBBbbbaaaawwwwllllll !!!

 

[AshGL1914]

Yeah...
If I remember correctly this is James' personal Donmoor shirt which he still owns.

Note the cuffs.

 

[number6]

Oh, and Capt. Tracy? They did make long sleeved Donmoor shirts, but...


They had black ribbed cuffs!

I had a blue one. I later replaced the command patch with a science patch I mail ordered. I used to just tuck the ribbing under the sleeve. The last time I wore it was in 1991 when I mixed the Nisi Period album, "Soon The Love Balloon Will Pop."

 

[Green Shirt]

I'll still take the word of the people who were actually on the set over any "evidence" that naysayers who were not eyewitnesses can come up with. Photographs showing 45 year old tunics that were drycleaned everyday to a faded shadow of their former selves just don't cut it as far as evidence goes. That also applies to snide comments and insults from those who try to incorporate historical events which have nothing to do with the matter at hand simply serve to cheapen their opinions and detract from the validity of their arguments.


I done with this, there are more pressing matters (like why my football team can't beat a team with a losing record).

 

[mb22]

What (true) color were the command shirts in the two pilots?

 

[AshGL1914]

Listen, no one ever said that the standard was old, faded, laundered, fabric, but that the sample used to create James' reproduction fabric was indeed UNFADED, UN-LAUNDERED, UN-EXPOSED, fabric swatches kept for over 45 years in BILL THEISS' personal notes. That's all.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Nobody's arguing that they're gold now. The problem is that we're still left with one final variable, the fact that we're still talking about swatches that are over forty years old, and unless Theiss took the extra step of having those samples hermetically sealed, oxidation remains a possibility, especially if the dye used has some sort of iron compound in it. No laundering or light exposure required for a possible change in the color.

And we've still got those contemporaneous comments, from Theiss on down, about how the stuff was, at the time, green. And I think those ViewMaster pics qualify as photographic evidence that at the time the tunics were made, yes, the stuff was green.

 

[Captain Robert April]

What (true) color were the command shirts in the two pilots?

I think a good check of the intent is to compare the color of the shirt and the collar. The collar is the very shade of green that everyone is arguing over, while the shirt does some strange things in the range of greenish gold.

 

[plynch]

So I look on TrekCore and the collars in WNMHGB are definitely green. The shirts even are kinda greenish.

YET, those are remastered and the color might have been tweaked to be green because of the green-believers. HMM . . .

It seems there are two possibilities to this whole mystery:

1. The original velour was "gold," evidenced by the swatches. BUT WHY would Theiss buy gold velour when it was "supposed" to be green (evidenced by green dress/wraparound/coverall unis)?? Why?

2. OR . . . The original velour was greenish and the now-gold Theiss swatches have faded, much as the blue dress faded to magenta. Even thought the swatches never saw daylight.

Are there any notes on costume design from 64/65 where a color is indicated?

 

[DeepSpaceWine]

1. The original velour was "gold," evidenced by the swatches. BUT WHY would Theiss buy gold velour when it was "supposed" to be green (evidenced by green dress/wraparound/coverall unis)?? Why?

Maybe they used color lights and thought the green becomes gold when combined with certain color lights. Mid '60s shows seemed to use color lights, not just standard white/yellowish lights. They might have chosen it because gold + something shows up as green. But it's not as if we don't have access to older tapes before the remastering (both of 'em, the 2006 and 1998 remasterings). A lot of people taped TOS on VHS in the '80s and '90s.

Or the gold velour was cheaper than green. Sci-fi shows were then were cheaply budgeted. Anyone know the price of velour back in the mid '60s.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Any notes would now be in the possession of one James Cawley, and he's rather proprietary about that material (can't say as I blame him).

I still keep coming back to those ViewMaster reels. I seriously doubt any tinkering was done to the colors in those pics back in '68. For one thing, why would they? This whole debate is a pretty recent phenomenon. Plus, not only are those tunics the exact shade of green that's been described over the years (as well as matching the third season tunics quite well; remember, we're still taking second season here), but it's consistent throughout the set. If there was tweaking involved, I don't they'd be quite so consistent. Plus, we have Spock, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura, and poor Ensign Ricky, and all those colors look just spiffy, which wouldn't be the case if someone had been playing with the hue and tint. Remember, we're talking 1968, and an item that sold at Sears for around a buck; not worth the effort to putz around with the color mix.

No, I think the ViewMaster pics constitute the best photographic evidence we have of what those tunics looked at the time, without the interference of color mixers from the studio, network, or local station.

So, anyone know how I can scan these things without having to take 'em apart to get to the film clips themselves?

 

[Green Shirt]

So Theiss (who selected the color), Nichelle Nichols (who briefly wore the color, calling it a drab green), David Gerrold (who saw the color when writing his book, called it a "color freakout when the green command shirts photographed as a kind of gold") and others who were actually on the set stating the color was green were lying?

So the "experts" have determined that the above mentioned people WERE actually lying.

Oh well. Let me add my "That's all" and be done with this farce. Let me go back and revisit the "Bridge faces forward" thread. At least there both sides had convincing arguments.

 

[Captain Robert April]

The bridge faced forward because Matt Jeffeires said so.

Next.

 

[Green Shirt]

The bridge faced forward because Matt Jeffeires said so.

Next.

That was quick.

 

[Maurice]

The bridge faced forward because Matt Jeffeires said so.

Next.

That was quick.

And...

The command tunics were green because Bill Theiss said so.

 

[Green Shirt]

The bridge faced forward because Matt Jeffeires said so.

Next.

That was quick.

And...

The command tunics were green because Bill Theiss said so.

Thank you. Case closed. Long live green.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Theiss called the color avocado.

 

[Green Shirt]

And guacamole is green, so what further proof is required?