The Final Countdown

[Base_Delta_Zero]

Quite a fun movie and I like the ending, makes perfect sense when you think about it. In historical terms though it wouldn't have much difference, the Nimtz didn't try to stop the Jap mini-subs which attacked Pearl harbour or the other Japanese attacks in the Philipines, Wake Island, Malaya etc the US would still have gone to war with Japan

Um, wrong.

The only reason the United States entered WWII at all was the attack on Pearl Harbor. Up to that point, American involvement had been covert and weighted toward keeping Europe in the fight. If the Japanese fleet had been sunk before the attack took place, FDR would not have had the smoking gun he needed to go to Congress for a war declaration, or to the mostly isolationist American People for support for a major war.

If the loss of the Phillipines were going to be a catalyst for war the US would already have been fighting Japan at the time the Pearl Harbor attack was scheduled. Malaya was part of a theater of operations that the US had no real claim to. Wake Island was a follow-on attack. No Pearl Harbor, no Wake Island. And those two subs were just gathering intelligence and were caught by American coastal patrols. It may seem cold, but 2 subs getting sunk where they weren't supposed to be can be dealt with politically.

This is history. The attack on Pearl Harbor came first. Congress declares war on Japan. Germany declares war on the US to defend its ally. The US declares war on Germany. None of this happens if Capt. Yellind decides to sink the Japanese fleet.

Uh, wrong. The Philippines were hit less than 12 hrs after Pearl as part of a coordinated push south and east into the Pacific, aiming for the Dutch East Indies (oil/rubber/strategic metals). Malaya was under British control and of no consequence. The Philippines were still ours at the time and had thousands of US service personnel on them, not to mention citizens. The US and Japan would still be at war by December 8th, 1941, at the latest. They'd just have an intact battleship force to add to the mix.

In fact, the original US plans for a one-on-one war with Japan (Plan Orange), assumed a first strike on and potential conquest of the Philippines, at which point the Fleet would sortie from Pearl and the West Coast and steam to confront the Japanese, take back the islands and kick their asses back to Japan.

Hitler declared war on the US, not to "help it's ally", but to make official what had already been on-going with the Battle of the Atlantic and open up unrestricted submarine warfare there. On top of feeding his urge to over-reach (he was already fighting the Soviets by this point). Other than the transfer of some strategic material and weapons blue prints, the Germans coordinated exactly jack and squat with the Japanese, let alone tried to defend them.

If the Nimitz had sunk the First Air Fleet (something its air group was fully capable of doing with over the horizon anti-ship missiles), the force assaulting the Philippines would have been unaffected. They were different ships. Had the Nimitz struck fast enough, the Japanese Admiralty would not have even known anything was wrong until it was much too late to recall their forces, as the fleet was under the strictest of radio silence until the mission had been successfully carried out and they were well away from Hawaii.

The Pacific would still have become a theatre of war in this scenario.

I'll add my recommendation for the Axis of Time trilogy. It's quite clever and a good read. Probably the only place you'll get to read about a ship called the USS Hillary Clinton kicking the shit out of World War II-era Japanese.

 

[saturn5]

America at this stage had already given an ultimatum to Japan to stop her territorial expansion and imposed an oil embargo on her, the attacks in the Phillipines and the subs in Pearl Harbour would both on their own have constituted an act of war (one of the subs actually penetrated Pearl Harbour and torpedoed a battleship). Japan also attacked other smaller American targets in the Far East, embassies, businiesses etc
Furthermore the US already had decoded Japanese cyphers explaining their intentions, they just hadn't been able to get the word to the Pacific Fleet in time. And last but not least the Japanese ambassador to the US delivered his countries formal declaration of war to the US Goverment whilst the attack was still going on.
As for Hitler what he did was a gamble. By late 1941 the US had already established 'neutrality patrols' in the Atlantic, had fired on U-boats and had 2 destroyers sunk in return. Hitler knew the US would eventually declare war on him and gambled that he could hit the US fleet hard and stop them providing massive military aid to the UK and USSR long enough for him to knock the Russians out of the war. And very nearly succeeded.

 

[Tom]

Also if if the war with Germany was delayed anymore it might have possibly led to Hitler having the A-bomb first and thus winning the war. At least if the Nimitz saved Pearl Harbor it would have made the U.S. Navy a bit more more powerful than it would have benn because they would not have lost any ships (like the Arizona, etc..).

 

[Vendikarr]

FDR still would've found a way to come into the war it's what he wanted. and what he thought was best for our nation. even if a ship from the future went to the past those who knew the history of the pearl harbor attack left to right would want to stop the loss of life on that kinda of scale. all so the said ship had know one to answer to.

They would have spun events to say something like the U.S. Carrier group, while on maneuvers, came across a massive Japanese airgroup inbound to Pearl Harbor. While suffering minor damage and loss of the life, the carrier group let by the U.S.S. {whatever Roosevelt renames the Nimitz} defeated the attacking aircraft.

Then they will add rhetoric to get the populace stirred against those deceptive Japanese. It's a sneak attack luckily averted. There may be more debate about it, but Roosevelt would get his war declaration.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ How would they explain Senator Chapman's death?

 

[timothy]

japanesse conspiracy. all so you gotta wonder what influece the good captin had when he was in the past the whole time.

 

[OsmiumJohnnycake]

Watched this for the first time tonight and I found it enjoyable. It's that era where Martin Sheen seemed to do a fantastic job even when he was just standing around. About halfway through the movie, I did sort of want an ending where they beat the Japanese forces entirely, traveled back to the present day and were all, "Yeah! We did it!" And not even hint at the ramifications.

The second time Sheen went into that guy's quarters was really a jerky move though. I mean he could have asked.

 

[Forbin]

Alternately an American carrier attacking a Japanese task force "on maneuvers" could have been spun by the Japanese as a sneak attack on THEM.

 

[Trevacious]

The second time Sheen went into that guy's quarters was really a jerky move though. I mean he could have asked.

And then he went in a Third time! Oh, that could have been pretty funny if he'd gone ahead and taken the manuscript, because then he'd have gotten busted Again - this time by his Boss in the limo.

 

[OsmiumJohnnycake]

Haha, I hadn't considered that. It would have been pretty funny and fit well, I think.

 

[timothy]

the movie had an excellent score during the fighter plane sceen.

 

[Warped9]

Here's a question: could a single Nimitz-class carrier, alone and without it's accompanying battle group, really take on a WW2 Japanese attack fleet and win?

Tomcats would be harder to hit than WW2 era U.S. planes and the Tomcat armament as well as that of the carrier should have more precision and greater range. But would one carrier and its planes be enough?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

MY question is this:

In both instances where the Nimitz goes through the anomaly, there are stray fighters which fly alongside it (in the opener, it's just one fighter, but at the end, it's an entire strike force). Assuming the pilots of these fighters were as incapacitated as everyone on the ship was during passage through the anomaly - which seems likely, given that the pilot they recover after they arrive in 1941 is unconscious - how the HELL did they manage to get through without crashing? It'd be like falling asleep at the wheel of a car while driving full blast down the Autobahn. Unbelievable luck...

 

[Warped9]

I haven't seen this film since it came out way back and I did see it on the big screen. I remember liking it then. I'll have to give it another look.

 

[Trevacious]

Assuming the pilots of these fighters were as incapacitated as everyone on the ship was during passage through the anomaly - which seems likely, given that the pilot they recover after they arrive in 1941 is unconscious - how the HELL did they manage to get through without crashing? It'd be like falling asleep at the wheel of a car while driving full blast down the Autobahn. Unbelievable luck...

Saved by auto-pilot?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Hmm. Interesting. I didn't know fighters had that sort of thing. Then again I know precisely sod-all about flying.

So if the pilot blacks out, or even dies, during flight, the plane can still land? Wow. Learn something new every day, I guess.

 

[Psion]

Well, even just flying straight and level would allow them time to recover their wits after exiting the anomaly.

By the way, I received the first two discs of Zipang yesterday ... I highly recommend it to anyone who doesn't mind anime. They do a lot more to explore the consequences of being marooned in 1942 and the crew of the Mirai are slowly being drawn into the war despite their best intentions. It doesn't look good for the U.S. so far!

It'd be interesting if there was some acknowledgment of the Nimitz incident in Zipang, although it would be tough to justify that given the circumstances. Not many people knew about the Nimitz incident in 1941, and I doubt anyone in the Japanese Defense Force would have been briefed. Hell, given the differences in the anomaly storm, it's tough to assert the two incidents belong in a shared fictional universe.

 

[timothy]

doni't fighter have auto pilot like the big jumbo planes? and if so would'nt they engage that as they go threw the anomoly?

 

[Mr Light]

With radar and missiles and fighter jets, couldn't the Nimitz destroy the entire Japanese armada before they even knew they were being attacked?

 

[Forbin]

Well, even just flying straight and level would allow them time to recover their wits after exiting the anomaly.

By the way, I received the first two discs of Zipang yesterday ... I highly recommend it to anyone who doesn't mind anime. They do a lot more to explore the consequences of being marooned in 1942 and the crew of the Mirai are slowly being drawn into the war despite their best intentions. It doesn't look good for the U.S. so far!

It'd be interesting if there was some acknowledgment of the Nimitz incident in Zipang, although it would be tough to justify that given the circumstances. Not many people knew about the Nimitz incident in 1941, and I doubt anyone in the Japanese Defense Force would have been briefed. Hell, given the differences in the anomaly storm, it's tough to assert the two incidents belong in a shared fictional universe.

How are you handling the Japanese crew's American Southern accents? I think I read it was done to indicate they were from Yokosuka (?), which the Japanese consider to be yokels.

Watch for the American air raid on the Murai in a later episode. I didn't know who the hell to root for!