Captain Pike

[Solariabsg25]

I think even Pike would've lightened up some had Hunter signed up for another go.

"As in all ship's doctors are dirty old men."

We were just catching Pike on a very bad day.

Exactly, we saw Pike at a real down point of his career.

He'd screwed up leading to a lot of deaths and was seriously considering leaving Starfleet. I personally feel that Greenwood shows what Pike would normally have been like.

If we for example look at Decker in Doomsday Machine, he's obviously not the same guy as he would have been beforehand.

 

[Timo]

Also, in "The Cage" Pike would have been a relatively junior skipper - having a kid at the center seat was one of the basic premises of TOS, regardless of who acted the lead role.

"The Cage" might have been the first serious setback in Pike's career, the first time he lost people under his command. Having made starship captain, he would still be a pretty big shot and might well consider retiring at what was both the nadir and and zenith of his career.

The rather modest amount of shiny braid on Pike's sleeves in "The Cage" might also point to his junior status, possibly even compared with Kirk.

Greenwood's Pike would be a tad older, and might have lived a different life overall...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Robert April]

I'll go along with Pike having the service grade of Commander at the time of "The Cage" (naval parlance and tradition dictating that, being the commanding officer, he is addressed as "Captain"), with his promotion to Captain coming up fairly soon afterward, but I doubt he was quite that green. Especially if you accept the common background item of Pike previously serving as April's first officer during the first five years following Enterprise's launch.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Pike was intended to be the captain of the Enterprise, at captain rank, in the first Trek pilot. IMO there's no need to fanwank an excuse for rank braids that simply hadn't been finalized yet.

 

[Timo]

...with his promotion to Captain coming up fairly soon afterward...

This is the interesting bit, because in "The Menagerie", it is suggested that Kirk (first) met Pike when the older skipper was promoted to Captain. Or Fleet Captain, but that might just be a fancy way of saying the same thing, and a practical means of separating the rank of Captain from the position of captain in formal speech - especially if the officer in question was already a captain and was promoted to Captain (and no, that's not a circular argument!).

The timeline works rather better if Kirk first meets Pike after "The Cage" instead of before it, thus supporting the idea that Pike was a young hotshot of low but rapidly ascending rank in his formative adventure.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

I'll go along with Pike having the service grade of Commander at the time of "The Cage" (naval parlance and tradition dictating that, being the commanding officer, he is addressed as "Captain"), with his promotion to Captain coming up fairly soon afterward, but I doubt he was quite that green. Especially if you accept the common background item of Pike previously serving as April's first officer during the first five years following Enterprise's launch.

But then you get into the fact that a Constitution class starship is suppose to be the cream of the crop. Why would they be handing them out to junior officers who hadn't yet commanded other ships?

 

[Captain Robert April]

Five years as first officer of the same ship would count for a lot, especially if it comes with a recommendation from the departing captain. It's also possible that Pike was being specifically groomed for the position, with April due to become Starfleet Academy Commandant directly after five years on the Enterprise.

And it's not uncommon for officers to serve in a position that normally requires a slightly higher rank, particularly if a promotion to that rank is due, say, within the year.

 

[Timo]

But then you get into the fact that a Constitution class starship is suppose to be the cream of the crop. Why would they be handing them out to junior officers who hadn't yet commanded other ships?

That's not exactly a fact. All we know from TOS is that starships are more prestigious commands than other vessels - but the Constitutions could be the very bottom of the barrel as far as starships go.

There might be differences between Constitutions, too. A ship on a Rigel milk run with just 200 crew aboard might be a far less prestigious command than an externally similar ship flying through uncharted space with 430 crew, including renowned specialists.

And if the Constitutions really have plenty of history behind them at the time of TOS, some might be considered antiquated and third-rate while others, suitably modernized, might be the cutting edge of Starfleet. Plenty of real-world precedent for that. A lowly Commander Pike or Commander Kirk could get a pre-refit ship for a mission of secondary import, while an exalted Commodore Wesley would command the most modern modification in high profile duties.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[PikeFan]

I think even Pike would've lightened up some had Hunter signed up for another go.

"As in all ship's doctors are dirty old men."

We were just catching Pike on a very bad day.

Yup, yup, yup. I like the idea!

 

[Gary7]

Pike was intended to be the captain of the Enterprise, at captain rank, in the first Trek pilot. IMO there's no need to fanwank an excuse for rank braids that simply hadn't been finalized yet.

Very good point. The use of braids was loosely defined and then promptly changed once the series got under way. So, to speculate about what they mean in "The Cage" beyond officer or NCO is just folly. You're absolutely right--Pike had the rank of captain and was serving as captain of the Enterprise. Not really any room to argue that.


Recently, I saw Jeffrey Hunter in a couple of old movies. In one he was a bit stiff, in the other he was more relaxed yet still reserved. The guy can beam a big smile if he wants to. So, I really think he could have opened up as captain for Star Trek season 1. Again, one episode is so little to go on, so we have to look outside the series to see what he was capable of. I still think Shatner was ultimately a better pick, but Hunter wouldn't have been "worse", just "different."

 

[BillJ]

That's not exactly a fact. All we know from TOS is that starships are more prestigious commands than other vessels - but the Constitutions could be the very bottom of the barrel as far as starships go.

I don't buy that Connies are the bottom of the barrel as far as starship commands go.

 

[Gary7]

^ In TOS, we don't get any information about existing vessels superior to the Constitution class starship. Of course, there was plenty of additional material concocted outside of the TV series, with the Dreadnought class looking to be the top dog. But I wouldn't consider that "true canon", as the series never mentioned it.

But wasn't there at least one or two references about the Enterprise being "best in the fleet"? Maybe it was later on in TNG or other series... I can't remember. But in any case, I got the distinct impression that the Enterprise was a choice assignment, even in TOS.

 

[T'Girl]

Pike was intended to be the captain of the Enterprise, at captain rank, in the first Trek pilot. IMO there's no need to fanwank an excuse for rank braids that simply hadn't been finalized yet.

In WWII, President John Kennedy's first command was while he was a Lieutenant, junior grade. In spite of his rank, he was still referred to as the Captain or Skipper of his boat.

In the present day US Navy it's very common for the Captain of a ship to hold the rank of Commander.

I'll go along with Pike having the service grade of Commander at the time of "The Cage" (naval parlance and tradition dictating that, being the commanding officer, he is addressed as "Captain")...

Perhaps the same of Kirk? In WNMHGB he too was sporting a mere double stripe, but very soon after had the additional broken stripe of a Captain's rank to go along with his Captain's position.

But then you get into the fact that a Constitution class starship is suppose to be the cream of the crop.

The impression I've always have gotten, is that the Enterprise and others of her class were mid-sized workhorses. Kirk said that Spock was considered the best first officer in the fleet, IIRC he never said the same of his ship.

In fact the Enterprise Prime is usually thought of as a fairly old ship in some fan circles. Even venerable.

 

[BillJ]

The impression I've always have gotten, is that the Enterprise and others of her class were mid-sized workhorses. Kirk said that Spock was considered the best first officer in the fleet, IIRC he never said the same of his ship.

In fact the Enterprise Prime is usually thought of as a fairly old ship in some fan circles. Even venerable.

But why would someone like Spock continue to serve on a mid-range cruiser. His talents would surely land him on the best of the best. Whether he wanted it or not.

 

[T'Girl]

But why would someone like Spock continue to serve on a mid-range cruiser.

Just because it was a "workhorse," it was where he could do the most with his service. Not serving aboard a glamor assignment "flagship."

Or maybe his father was using his influence to screw with his son's career.

 

[EnterpriseGeek]

I prefer Greenwood's Pike over Hunter's or Kenney's.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I'll go along with Pike having the service grade of Commander at the time of "The Cage" (naval parlance and tradition dictating that, being the commanding officer, he is addressed as "Captain")...

Perhaps the same of Kirk? In WNMHGB he too was sporting a mere double stripe, but very soon after had the additional broken stripe of a Captain's rank to go along with his Captain's position.

Pike only had one stripe.

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/0x00/thecage040.jpg

 

[Timo]

I guess it's too much to ask anyone to believe Pike was a mere O-3, even if O-5 or O-4 might be plausible in light of modern practices...

OTOH, all the other single-stripers in "The Cage" could well have been Lieutenants - and one of them, the ship's First Officer (* was explicitly addressed as such, sort of proving that the officers under Pike were more junior in rank than the officers under Kirk, or under any other starship commander for that matter. Or at least it would be a bit odd if they were more senior than their XO (Boyce perhaps notwithstanding).

Timo Saloniemi

*) Of course, this is just conjecture, based on her being called "Number One" and described as the ship's most experienced officer. Might be she simply happened to have a weird name and lots of service years, but a relatively low position in the chain of command. But that wouldn't explain why Pike specifically said he wanted to leave the ship in command of this particular officer when going down with his doctor, Spock, and a couple of no-names, if some putative XO of higher rank existed.

 

[Merky]

But wasn't there at least one or two references about the Enterprise being "best in the fleet"? Maybe it was later on in TNG or other series... I can't remember. But in any case, I got the distinct impression that the Enterprise was a choice assignment, even in TOS.

I think it was always, in some way, implied in the show and in the movies that the Enterprise was the flagship/best of the fleet.

In almost every other episode Spock and Kirk are referred to as Starfleet's "best captain" and "finest first officer"... and in the Immunity Syndrome, Spock says:

SPOCK: Personal log, Commander Spock, USS Enterprise. I have noted the passage of the Enterprise on its way to whatever awaits it. If this record should survive me, I wish it known that I bequeath my highest commendation and testimonial to the captain, officers, and crew of the Enterprise. The finest starship in the fleet.

Probably personal conjecture on his behalf though.

As for Pike, Hunter's version never really won me over in The Cage. But damn, Greenwood's Pike was like oozing bad-assery across the screen. It really makes me wonder how nu!Kirk is gonna fill those big shoes nu!Pike left behind.

 

[Timo]

Actually, it seems to me that "Immunity Syndrome" is the only case in Star Trek history where either our heroes or their contemporary colleagues give such praise.

And even that praise comes in the form of a necessary morale-raiser at a moment of despair, and could well be one of those times where Mr. Spock stretches the limits of truth. Earlier in the episode, our top heroes were in agreement that nothing separated their ship from the lost Intrepid - not technology, not crew quality. If they succeeded where the Vulcans failed, it would be through sheer luck, or derring-do, or whatever.

Timo Saloniemi